Are you a ''lukewarm'' atheist or theist?

[Mequa]

Maybe I should accept feeling vulnerable right now, instead of trying to fight it so hard. And instead of looking at it as something I need to ''correct.''

Well Deidre, to myself vulnerability is quite simply an adorable trait. Nothing makes me feel fonder of another person, and awakens my protective drive, than seeing them disclose their vulnerabilities and emotions. I have honestly been touched close to tears reading about your struggles. {{hugs}}

You just have to watch out for circling sharks who do not have your best interests at heart. When you are vulnerable, abusive types smell blood. Run!

I am glad you seem to have many supportive friends to help you through your hard times. I think I am going to enjoy watching you recover and heal from your unfortunate loss, and feel very happy for you when you finally find happiness and peace of mind at the end of the tunnel of your current "fog".

 

[Deidre]

That's right, atheism accomodates objective reality, and only objective reality. There is no accomodation provided for subjectivity, expression of emotion in atheism.

You must accept both subjectivity and objectivity.

You're right, it isn't 'wrong' to hold onto subjective truths, if they serve us well...and help us. I have found this unexplainable void with atheism, because I've tried to push my emotions aside...emotions that cause me to feel the presence of something more than the here and now, if that makes sense.

@Mequa - {{thank you}} You always know just what to say. I'm not fond of being vulnerable. lol But, maybe that's just part of being human, and I should just let it flow.

 

[Mequa]

@Mequa - {{thank you}} You always know just what to say. I'm not fond of being vulnerable. lol But, maybe that's just part of being human, and I should just let it flow.

I think it's like the saying, we are our own worst critics. Traits you may not like in yourself, another person may find endearing. As a man I do find vulnerability difficult at times, personally.

There is nothing wrong with being human though, after all.

As for the topic of this thread, I hope you either make peace with your atheism, or find (or construct?) a belief system more suited to your emotional needs. "Lukewarm" can be dangerous and not very happy territory.

Convictions, too, are an important part of being human.

I wish you all the best for your healing journey.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But, there are some I meet in life who seem so sure of their faith. So positively sure.

There are a few people who do really understand, but I think for most of us it's more a case of attaching to beliefs and opinions because that makes us feel a bit more secure. It's a comfort, a way of coping with the inherent uncertainty in human existence. Ironically though, the more we attach to beliefs the less likely we are to look carefully and see what is really going on.

So what do we want, comfort or truth? I think my answer would be just enough comfort to sustain the search for truth.

 

[Estro Felino]

I posted this in my journal today, to get these feelings out somewhere...and thought I'd ask a more pointed question here, as I'd truly like to get some guidance/support/enlightenment, into how I've been feeling, lately.

As an atheist, I don't really pray per se, anymore...although, I sometimes will utter...''God, if you are really there, will you help me? Will you take this pain away that I'm feeling? Will you protect me from those who wish to harm me? Will you help my unbelief?''

I was surprised to pray the last sentence the other day...but I did. It seemed to just fall out of my mouth, as I audibly said it.

Does he hear me? Is he angry with me? Is he there at all? Is my grandmother in a place called heaven? I feel overwhelmed today with these thoughts swirling around in my mind, and wish there were definitive answers. So, I just wanted to vent this today...in hopes that it clears my own mind a bit, but to share the experience with those who might be struggling through some of the very same questions.

I can't help but wonder if after all of those years as a child being indoctrinated into the Christian faith...if I somehow can't see life without the light of theism shining upon it. If this is the case...does this make one a lukewarm atheist or theist?

According to the Bible, being 'lukewarm' is a precarious place to remain. How did I go from being confident in my atheism, to doubting it?

Take a look at my signature: the biblical passage clearly says that God prefers either hot Christians (saints and martyrs) or cold Atheists.

He dislikes lukewarm Christians, that is, the ones who claim they are Christians , but they are selfish and do nothing for the poor.

so he wishes they became Atheists.

a great friend of mine, a Pelagian like me, was asked once by a rich lady of our town: "why do you go to Mass so rarely?"
and she replied: "because in the Church there are people like you!"

 

[illykitty]

Can't answer that for you, but you don't need to know straight away, do you?

Take time to explore many ideas. There's some ideas that sort of float in between atheism and theism as well. Even if it doesn't lead anywhere new, it's at least informative and fascinating to come across so many ideas. Can gain a better understanding of others and of yourself, if you can eliminate your doubts by exploring things fully. It might take your mind off the Christian narrative to see all the different ideas out there... And you can see that it's just another perspective. Maybe that will make you reassured in your atheism.

For example, the idea to worship that which has subjective value sounds good to me, even if they're not objectively gods, whatever that means. Just an idea, no need to agree, it's to show it's not always black or white, there's various shades of grey in the realm of belief. You might just be a shade of grey and that's fine!

I also learned to embrace subjectivity more, which helped with my doubts. Someone else's views aren't more correct - they're their interpretation too, their lenses of reality. An atheist could have the same experience as a theist and still not believe in anything, that's valid too. Try to trust yourself more. Even if all you feel is awe towards the night sky, that's such a great experience too, learn to embrace it.

I'm sure you're not the only person in such a situation, either with theism or atheism. So just dive in and whatever happens, happens. There's no need to worry so much, even if I empathise with you. atheist or theist, it doesn't matter... Go find yourself and you don't need a label yet, or ever.

 

[Deidre]

Can't answer that for you, but you don't need to know straight away, do you?

Take time to explore many ideas. There's some ideas that sort of float in between atheism and theism as well. Even if it doesn't lead anywhere new, it's at least informative and fascinating to come across so many ideas. Can gain a better understanding of others and of yourself, if you can eliminate your doubts by exploring things fully. It might take your mind off the Christian narrative to see all the different ideas out there... And you can see that it's just another perspective. Maybe that will make you reassured in your atheism.

For example, the idea to worship that which has subjective value sounds good to me, even if they're not objectively gods, whatever that means. Just an idea, no need to agree, it's to show it's not always black or white, there's various shades of grey in the realm of belief. You might just be a shade of grey and that's fine!

I also learned to embrace subjectivity more, which helped with my doubts. Someone else's views aren't more correct - they're their interpretation too, their lenses of reality. An atheist could have the same experience as a theist and still not believe in anything, that's valid too. Try to trust yourself more. Even if all you feel is awe towards the night sky, that's such a great experience too, learn to embrace it.

I'm sure you're not the only person in such a situation, either with theism or atheism. So just dive in and whatever happens, happens. There's no need to worry so much, even if I empathise with you. atheist or theist, it doesn't matter... Go find yourself and you don't need a label yet, or ever.

I really like what you have to say here, thank you! You're right, I don't need a label, and I happen to think that because I was so immersed in Christianity for so long, having left it...I felt like a fish out of water. Searching and seeking for another label. I never explored any other religions besides Christianity, until after I started identifying myself as an atheist. Then I explored Buddhism for a bit, but even that felt too theistic.

Losing my grandmother last week, I was very distraught, and not entirely thinking straight. I feel a lot better today, and have some clarity, and feel that life is meant to be lived, and not meant to be stressed out over what faith I should follow, or how I should label myself.

So, having just let my thoughts wander a bit...I've decided that I feel most comfortable as a spiritual agnostic. Yes, another label...lol But, it's more of a description than anything else.

I feel spiritual. I don't believe any of us know if a deity exists or not. I don't believe anyone can obtain that type of certainty. Having said that, I'm desirous of a prayer life again...even if I'm not praying to a deity per se, or a deity that I once thought existed in the Bible, I can still offer my thoughts, pains, sorrows and desire to the great Unknown.

''Embrace subjectivity more...'' I will do just that!

 

[Deidre]

That's right, atheism accomodates objective reality, and only objective reality. There is no accomodation provided for subjectivity, expression of emotion in atheism.

You must accept both subjectivity and objectivity.

Ah! It was you who said this comment. I have had this in my mind since you've posted it here, and couldn't recall who commented...I'm glad I ran across it again. I have been unable to get the words out of my head...''You must accept subjectivity and objectivity.''

The truth is...maybe that is our truth. Reality, with our own perceptions of it. Thank you for this!

 

[viole]

How did I go from being confident in my atheism, to doubting it?

In my experience (not statistically relevant though) atheists start doubting their atheism because of some emotional vulnerability, never for logical and cold reasons. When we need help and none can be found in the world, then we fall back on what we have been programmed to do: praying.

Probably, this is one of the reasons why religious thought evolved in our minds. Hope, and the need to speak out our problems to an imaginary being, even if logically unjustified, can help the survival of the species.

And I also suspect that praying loud helps to put order on our thoughts. I usually speak loud to myself when confronted with a difficult problem. It seems to help, even if I do not address any god.

Ciao

- viole

 

[nazz]

I think that's it! I'm concerned about who is right/wrong...because that is how Christianity was presented to me...that it was the only path to righteousness. The only path to the 'truth.' When I deconverted from Christianity four years ago, I felt sure. It felt right, and I felt at peace. Looking back as to when I started feeling the void from my deconversion, it all started when my grandmother's health began to decline last year. And now she's gone, and I'm struggling with the whole idea of eternal life, and so on. I'm okay with wondering...and being in awe of the universe, without needing to know if a deity exists...but, at the same time...does this make me a lukewarm theist or atheist? If you have doubts as a Christian for example...does that make you a lukewarm Christian? Thank you for your comment, it's helpful.

I posted this in my journal today, to get these feelings out somewhere...and thought I'd ask a more pointed question here, as I'd truly like to get some guidance/support/enlightenment, into how I've been feeling, lately.

As an atheist, I don't really pray per se, anymore...although, I sometimes will utter...''God, if you are really there, will you help me? Will you take this pain away that I'm feeling? Will you protect me from those who wish to harm me? Will you help my unbelief?''

I was surprised to pray the last sentence the other day...but I did. It seemed to just fall out of my mouth, as I audibly said it.

Does he hear me? Is he angry with me? Is he there at all? Is my grandmother in a place called heaven? I feel overwhelmed today with these thoughts swirling around in my mind, and wish there were definitive answers. So, I just wanted to vent this today...in hopes that it clears my own mind a bit, but to share the experience with those who might be struggling through some of the very same questions.

I can't help but wonder if after all of those years as a child being indoctrinated into the Christian faith...if I somehow can't see life without the light of theism shining upon it. If this is the case...does this make one a lukewarm atheist or theist?

According to the Bible, being 'lukewarm' is a precarious place to remain. How did I go from being confident in my atheism, to doubting it?

I sent you a private message because I got confused and thought this was a DIR. Anyway here is some of what I wrote you but please check out the rest in your inbox:

No, doubts do not make a person "lukewarm". As you can see my nickname is "Doubting Thomas" because like the character in the gospels I must see for myself. I need a good reason to believe. I used to be terrified of doubt as I was taught it was from the devil. But I learned to make doubt my friend and it led me to reject much false belief I had embraced. This is a good thing! But I have also learned there is both rational and irrational doubt and it is important to distinguish between the two.

 

[1137]

Doubt is actually a fundamental aspect of initiated atheism. Gnostic atheism, after all, is just faith.

 

[CeilingCat]

I am of the anti christ variety. I would say that i am a staunch atheist. For now i couldn't be lukewarm, for now i am a hot atheist.

 

[nazz]

I am of the anti christ variety. I would say that i am a staunch atheist. For now i couldn't be lukewarm, for now i am a hot atheist.

got a pic to prove it?

 

[Deidre]

I am of the anti christ variety. I would say that i am a staunch atheist. For now i couldn't be lukewarm, for now i am a hot atheist.

hahaha!! Oh my gosh, it's you!
((cat hugs))

 

[Baladas]

As a Christian, those verses were always distressing to me.
Now, having left that faith, I still have a very hard time not reading it as:
"I would rather you be a fundamentalist or an atheist. There is no in between for Me."

It just always struck me as wildly unbalanced. What is wrong with living a balanced life?

 

[CeilingCat]

Your so right, the bible doesn't leave any grey areas. It black or white.

 

[Dionysus]

I am a hot atheist who understands that objective realities are subject to subjective interpretations. Though I don't believe that emotions should play a pivotal role in most policies and decisions, I value emotion, especially when it comes to empathy. I am open to mystical ideas and experiences. I am okay with people holding opposing views, as long as they don't expect others to agree with them without a reasonable amount of supporting falsifiable evidence in appropriate measure for the claim in question.

Regarding dogmatic views of right and wrong, I still agree with Ecclesiastes 7:

16 Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwise—
why destroy yourself?
17 Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a fool—
why die before your time?
18 It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other... (NIV)

((hugs))

 

[Deidre]

As a Christian, those verses were always distressing to me.
Now, having left that faith, I still have a very hard time not reading it as:
"I would rather you be a fundamentalist or an atheist. There is no in between for Me."

It just always struck me as wildly unbalanced. What is wrong with living a balanced life?

The Bible was written by men, for men. Literally men. lol No woman in her right mind would oppress other women. Same with other holy books. While I have respect for theists, and I was once one for a time, I don't have respect for religion that preaches oppression of any one group. And that's what opened my eyes to tossing the idea of religion out of my head, once and for all.

Why would an almighty God need for me or you to ostracize a particular group that 'he created' to 'honor him?' Makes no sense.

Lots of beauty in religion, as far as prayer goes, but the legalism is a man made creation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I posted this in my journal today, to get these feelings out somewhere...and thought I'd ask a more pointed question here, as I'd truly like to get some guidance/support/enlightenment, into how I've been feeling, lately.

As an atheist, I don't really pray per se, anymore...although, I sometimes will utter...''God, if you are really there, will you help me? Will you take this pain away that I'm feeling? Will you protect me from those who wish to harm me? Will you help my unbelief?''

I was surprised to pray the last sentence the other day...but I did. It seemed to just fall out of my mouth, as I audibly said it.

Does he hear me? Is he angry with me? Is he there at all? Is my grandmother in a place called heaven? I feel overwhelmed today with these thoughts swirling around in my mind, and wish there were definitive answers. So, I just wanted to vent this today...in hopes that it clears my own mind a bit, but to share the experience with those who might be struggling through some of the very same questions.

I can't help but wonder if after all of those years as a child being indoctrinated into the Christian faith...if I somehow can't see life without the light of theism shining upon it.

If this is the case...does this make one a lukewarm atheist or theist?

According to the Bible, being 'lukewarm' is a precarious place to remain. How did I go from being confident in my atheism, to doubting it?

I wanted to say I understand how you feel. I'm an atheist by technicality. I don't believe in a divine entity. I feel people are personifying the mystery of life so they can identify with it by love of being alive through the eyes of their cultural beliefs and practices, preferences in morals, guidance from a person, a text, and/or oneself.

This is my opinion only; please don't take it to heart: When an atheist calls out "God help me. Are you there?" I believe it's a natural human reaction any person would say during difficult times (as what you and I are going through with our grandmothers) and by talking out loud and asking for help. When it's hard to find inner help outside oneself--family, friends, strangers--our natural inclination is to go to that "final stage" of mercy and help.

It is like a man in a desert alone. Say he is an atheist. He has tried everything to find water and food, but has not succeeded. In the end, he calls out "HELP!" Not because he believes in God. It's because it is his natural outer expression for help. Normally, when we ask for help, it is usually to someone. So that's another natural inclination is to ask someone (even if they do not exist) for help because that is their last resort.

It's a survival technique and psychological is what I'm getting at.

Long story short: Unless you actually believe that God exists, what you are doing is going through a stage of "calling for mercy". Usually people ask for help from other people. Since God is an entity/person, He is all powerful, and all that, to someone at the break of mercy would go to that person before anyone else.

That doesn't make the atheist a theist. Just in a crisis situation, the too need someone to lean on. Since your upbringing is the Christian faith, that is why that may seem comfortable to you. It isn't wrong.

Regardless of how you pray and who..the general definition of atheist (going by grammar) is lack of belief in deities. Prayer doesn't make a deity exist more than anything else. It is mainly about you.

I encourage you to pray more, though. If you find solace in praying to God, that is between you and God. Only you know how "He" is communicating with you (maybe by sign, by thought, by having a good day). That communication/relationship is the evidence (made wording) that "He" exists. My friend told me once, "what more do you need?"

--

According to my belief, your grandmother is still with you as a spirit not just in spirit. I believe spirits of the deceased are like God to others. They are always watching out for us, giving us hints of what not to do, blessings, and such. You don't need to believe in God to believe that your grandmother is watching over you. Communicate with her. Pray to her. Maybe she can tell you about God. She would know what to say better than many of us here that aren't related to you.

I hope this helps a bit. Basically, I'm saying. Atheists can still be atheists and pray to God because that is a natural reaction to the last stage of mercy. If that atheist believes God exists then he is no longer an athiest, but a theist. (Atheist can do theist things. It's their belief in God that tells the difference between the two)

Okay.. sorry this is long... just thinking over things myself.

 

[psychoslice]

I don't have a belief in any god, but I don't call myself an atheist.