Are you a Lover or a Sinner?

[allfoak]

Is a parent capable of unconditional love or are we just wretched, hopeless sinners in need of saving?
I am going to presume that people believe that everyone is capable of unconditional love.
If we have the ability to love unconditionally, then what do we need to be saved from?
It seems to me that unconditional love is the power of salvation.
This power is within us, or....
perhaps we are just wretched sinners in need of saving.

 

[Vinayaka]

No in between?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Is a parent capable of unconditional love or are we just wretched, hopeless sinners in need of saving?
I am going to presume that people believe that a parent is capable of unconditional love.
If we have the ability to love unconditionally, then what do we need to be saved from?
It seems to me that unconditional love is the power of salvation.
This power is within us, or....
perhaps we are just wretched sinners in need of saving.

I think this is much oversimplified. I don't know what unconditional means, but in any way I can conceive it, no. Even if the condition is merely that 'this' is my child. I certainly don't think we are wretched and hopeless. I don't believe in sin as an objective reality. It is merely a subjective state of mind when we recognize we behave in base manner. And I certainly do not believe we need to be saved.

I believe we are merely...human!

 

[allfoak]

No in between?

How can we be capable of unconditional love and yet be in need of saving?

 

[allfoak]

I think this is much oversimplified. I don't know what unconditional means, but in any way I can conceive it, no. Even if the condition is merely that 'this' is my child. I certainly don't think we are wretched and hopeless. I don't believe in sin as an objective reality. It is merely a subjective state of mind when we recognize we behave in base manner. And I certainly do not believe we need to be saved.

I believe we are merely...human!

Perhaps i could complicate it some for you.
un·con·di·tion·al
ˌənkənˈdiSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective

1. not subject to any conditions.
   "unconditional surrender"
   synonyms: wholehearted, unqualified, unreserved, unlimited, unrestricted, unmitigated, unquestioning; More

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

How can we be capable of unconditional love and yet be in need of saving?

I think you missed that point, we are neither. That is in between.

 

[Vinayaka]

How can we be capable of unconditional love and yet be in need of saving?

Neither. Because we're human we can't be capable of unconditional love. All we can do is try very very hard. We all make mistakes, although I suppose there are few people who claim they're perfect, but I doubt too many others would believe them.

As for 'in need of saving', saved from what?

 

[allfoak]

I think you missed that point, we are neither. That is in between.

You don't think someone is capable of unconditional love nor do you think we are wretched and hopeless?
If a parent is willing to give their life for their child is that unconditional?

 

[allfoak]

Neither. Because we're human we can't be capable of unconditional love. All we can do is try very very hard. We all make mistakes, although I suppose there are few people who claim they're perfect, but I doubt too many others would believe them.

As for 'in need of saving', saved from what?

Saved from our in ability to save ourselves from our condition of sin.

 

[Vinayaka]

Saved from our in ability to save ourselves from our condition of sin.

Maybe you meant to put this in the Christian debates section? 'Sin' like that isn't part of all religions, sorry.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Perhaps i could complicate it some for you.
un·con·di·tion·al
ˌənkənˈdiSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective

1. not subject to any conditions.
   "unconditional surrender"
   synonyms: wholehearted, unqualified, unreserved, unlimited, unrestricted, unmitigated, unquestioning; More

No, we are not capable of 'unconditional' anything...

I could say we are capable of unconditional love..but it depends (is conditioned) upon the circumstances. Even if we momentarily express bits of unconditional love, it is not 100% of the time. I know of no one, parent or otherwise, that never ever ever feels a moment of disappointment or questioning. No parent believes their child is perfect all the time, and therefore there is reservation, qualification, restriction, and mitigation even if only the slightest.

I believe the term 'unconditional' is too much like the term 'infallible' or 'perfect.' In essence unconditional love would be love that could never under any circumstances be improved.

What kind of narcissist would it take to claim that it would be impossible for their love to be improved?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

You don't think someone is capable of unconditional love nor do you think we are wretched and hopeless?
If a parent is willing to give their life for their child is that unconditional?

No, that is not unconditional. The child carries the parents genes and saving the child is critical to the parents own genetic legacy. See the selfish gene. Essentially there is no altruistic act that cannot be explained in evolutionary terms.

 

[Aštra’el]

I am a sinner that loves to love and loves to hate, but sometimes hates to love and hates to hate.

 

[allfoak]

No, that is not unconditional. The child carries the parents genes and saving the child is critical to the parents own genetic legacy. See the selfish gene. Essentially there is no altruistic act that cannot be explained in evolutionary terms.

That's scary.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think that certain actions can be unconditional, like giving a gift, with no expectations in return, or the example of saving your kid's life, but certainly no person can live that way 24-7.

 

[allfoak]

I think that certain actions can be unconditional, like giving a gift, with no expectations in return, or the example of saving your kid's life, but certainly no person can live that way 24-7.

The fact that it is can be done is all that matters.

 

[lovesong]

Not all of us believe in the idea of salvation or that there is anything we need to be saved from. For us, there is no conflict against the concept of unconditional love except individual limitations.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

That's scary.

Not really, no! When you think about it...It is in our own best interest to be kind! To help! To give!

 

[psychoslice]

Sinning or turning away from god is the only way to live, we have to grow up and let god go and take responsibility for ourselves, its called, spiritual maturity.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Sinning or turning away from god is the only way to live, we have to grow up and let god go and take responsibility for ourselves, its called, spiritual maturity.

I see wisdom in your words, but not sure I can conclude 'spiritual maturity.' Most likely it is merely acceptance of the human condition (and the responsibility thereof).