Are you a liar?

[Elihoenai]

The pronouncements of Paul, were not original to the teachings of the apostles. With respect to 2 Timothy 3, Paul was referring to the "sacred writings" he had read from childhood, which would preclude his writings. The present generally used "Christian" NT canon stems from the 4th century, and under the authority of the "beast", the Roman empire.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Paul is a Servant of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ and Inspired teacher of Elohim/God. All his letters in the Christian Canon are Original True Christian Doctrine.

While the official Christian Canon is all True and Accurate, the Roman Catholic Church has led astray their flock with False Doctrinal Interpretations. The Roman Catholic Church has dominion over all 2.2 Billions of Christians in Christendom including all Protestants.

 

[Elihoenai]

And like too many Christians you do not seem to understand that verse. What do you think that means? Also we know that parts of the Bible are not literally true. No Adam and Eve and Garden of Eden. No Noah's Ark. No Exodus. If you do not understand this you cannot understand the Bible.

All Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation are given by the Inspiration of Elohim/God. Everything in the Scriptures/Bible is True with Elohim/God being in Charge of the compilation of the Canon.

 

[Subduction Zone]

All Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation are given by the Inspiration of Elohim/God. Everything in the Scriptures/Bible is True with Elohim/God being in Charge of the compilation of the Canon.

It does not say or even imply that all scripture is true. That is a false meaning that you added to that verse.

 

[Elihoenai]

It does not say or even imply that all scripture is true. That is a false meaning that you added to that verse.

That's your interpretation. You don't know and cannot see the Original Christian Doctrine.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's your interpretation. You don't know and cannot see the Original Christian Doctrine.

Neither can you. But the fact that the Bible contradicts itself endlessly. That certain events in the Bible did not happen tell us that your interpretation is incorrect.

 

[Elihoenai]

Neither can you. But the fact that the Bible contradicts itself endlessly. That certain events in the Bible did not happen tell us that your interpretation is incorrect.

Well you stick to your closed minded position. We are seeing different from you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well you stick to your closed minded position. We are seeing different from you.

Projection. I am not the one with a close mind. Your interpretation, which is demonstrably wrong, leads to close mindedness. You are accusing others of your "sins".

 

[Elihoenai]

Projection. I am not the one with a close mind. Your interpretation, which is demonstrably wrong, leads to close mindedness. You are accusing others of your "sins".

Yes, I'm Closed minded about everything in the Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelations being True. Have not denied that. Therefore, I'm Closed Minded in my position and you are Closed Minded in opposite position.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, I'm Closed minded about everything in the Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelations being True. Have not denied that. Therefore, I'm Closed Minded in my position and you are Closed Minded in opposite position.

No, once again you are projecting. If someone can properly support their claims I can change my mind. You seem to have admitted that you can't, even though you should know that you are wrong in some of your beliefs.

 

[Redemptionsong]

1 Corinthians 15:49

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


I'm in total agreement with everything in the Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation. It appears that you have the false belief that you can become Spiritual without practicing the Earthly Levitical Priesthood. Those that bear the image of the Earthly must practice the Earthly Priesthood. You must follow the path instructed and exampled by Yeshua/Jesus with Total Devotion, otherwise you are not a True Christian.

@Redemptionsong It appears that you are a member of the Earthly Christian Church. What is your Christian Denominational or Non-Denominational Church?

I am not a member of any particular visible church denomination, but l do accept the scriptures as the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit as the baptism of Jesus Christ. I am probably closest to the Pentecostalists in my theology.

What do you mean by 'practicing the Earthly Levitical Priesthood'?

To me, the priesthood of the NT are the saints of God, the 'born again' believers who, as co-heirs with Jesus Christ, mediate between man and God. This includes all the ministries described by Paul - apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

 

[Redemptionsong]

To escape the coming wrath of God to come (Matthew 3:7), one must confess and repent of their sins. Not that they haven't sinned. To "repent" is to turn away from. Per Hosea 5 & 6, Judah and Ephraim will acknowledge their guilt, and then they will be healed after two days (2000 years). If you claim you remain a sinner, then that would preclude you from being a sanctuary of the Spirit of of God. As for the gospel of the kingdom, it has not been preached. The false gospel of the false prophet Paul is the false gospel being preached. The "end" comes when the gospel of the kingdom is preached throughout the world (Mt 24). In an age of the internet, that gospel can be preached in a nanosecond throughout the world. What is functioning is the Gentile church, "the flock doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7), shepherded by two shepherds, Peter, the "worthless shepherd" (Zech 11:17), and Paul, called "Favor" (Zechariah 11:10), because of his false gospel of grace. The Gentile church is represented by the "adulteress", who was bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver per Hosea 3, for "many days", after which Israel will return, to the "LORD their God", and "David their king".

IMO, Paul was an apostle chosen by the risen Lord. He was also a Pharisee before his conversion. It's clear that he knew the Hebrew scriptures well, and quotes from them to justify his new doctrine.

What did Paul say, do you think, that was not in accord with the OT, or with the teaching of Jesus?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The evangelist John asks a very challenging question in his first epistle (1 John 2:22). He asks, 'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

He goes on to say, 'He is an anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:'

Strong words from a man who preached a God of love!

But, how does one arrive at the position that a man is a liar if he denies that Jesus is Christ? I guess the opening premise is that God is Truth [Deut. 32:4 etc]. From here one can reasonably deduce that God's Word is true, and that Christ, coming from God, is the Word of God [Rev. 19:13]. If this be the case, then a denial of Christ is a denial of truth [John 14:6]. To deny truth is to make truth a lie. Is this, therefore, the unforgivable sin?

Christ deniers really have no rock to stand on when 'truth' becomes a victim, as happens in war. Where is the hope of justice if there is no God to hear your cry? If your daughter is raped and murdered by soldiers, or your son tortured, tied and shot in the back of the head, how do you respond? Hate and seek revenge? Add your vitriol to the great hell of war? Seek justice from courts that may never provide justice? Give up on life itself, with no hope of glory?

I'm with Paul, who said, 'For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.' [Phil.1:21]

Not being convinced something is true is not rejecting that truth. A lie is something that you believe to be true and say it is not true. If I said I believed in Jesus as God then I would be lying. You are saying that God considers me a liar because I don't believe. Seems like God gets to have it both ways and send me to hell no matter what I do.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not being convinced something is true is not rejecting that truth. A lie is something that you believe to be true and say it is not true. If I said I believed in Jesus as God then I would be lying. You are saying that God considers me a liar because I don't believe. Seems like God gets to have it both ways and send me to hell no matter what I do.

John is not addressing those that are undecided, but those that deny that Jesus is the Christ.

Here is John speaking on the same subject:
'He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son'.

John is prophesying God's words when he records these things. So, if God's word is true, all denial is false. A denial of the truth is a lie.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

John is not addressing those that are undecided, but those that deny that Jesus is the Christ.

Here is John speaking on the same subject:
'He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son'.

John is prophesying God's words when he records these things. So, if God's word is true, all denial is false. A denial of the truth is a lie.

Ok, thanks. But is an undecided person going to heaven or hell?

 

[F1fan]

As a humanist, you have one life, here and now. Do you not admit that this makes a difference to your thinking and morality?

I am aware I have this life to live and be accountable for. I make no assumptions of reincarnation or an afterlife. I like those ideas, but they are too absurd to think are plausible. These ideas point to the greed of the ego, and how the ego fears it's end. For the ego to pretend there is more after death is an illusion that isn't attractive to me.

I accept the Bible as God's Word. I am not under duress or pressure to make such a claim. The internal integrity of scripture, matched by my personal experience, leads me to this conclusion.

Why not Islam or Hinduism? Are you aware of how you were indoctrinated and taught to believe in your religion?

Scripture teaches, and reason supports the idea, that God is eternal. If God gives life, then life belongs to God, and if God wishes to give life to the dead, then the dead will live again.

Scripture is irrelevant. You were taught to interpret and believe the Bible means a certain thing, and you are complicit in this social conditioning. For various reasons you were open to being influenced.

Believing in eternal life, and in Christ as the way to eternal life, l am left with a very different attitude to life in this world. As Jesus said, 'where your treasure is, there will be your heart also.'

Sure, this idea ws designed to appeal to the fear of deaths and it exploits people who allow their fear to drive their decisions. It's a tarp and you subconsciously fell for it. It's comfortable, but it still takes a lot of work for you to maintain this illusion, and keep the fear at the forefront of your experience.

The exploited believer thinks they are free from death, but they don't live free from fear.

Your heart is clearly focused on 'facts' and the things of this world. Well, we know where your treasure lies!

I'm not attracted to illusions and false concepts in religions. I can feel how tempting some of these ideas are to my emotions, but I am self-reflective and honest with myself, and can reject these without much effort. This is discipline of mind.

Jesus said, 'lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:'

IMO, Jesus divides people into two camps. You are either for him, and the truth, or you are against him, and the truth. Why? Because Jesus speaks as God.

Why can't you be your own person?

 

[2ndpillar]

IMO, Paul was an apostle chosen by the risen Lord. He was also a Pharisee before his conversion. It's clear that he knew the Hebrew scriptures well, and quotes from them to justify his new doctrine.

What did Paul say, do you think, that was not in accord with the OT, or with the teaching of Jesus?

Apparently the son of man sits at the right hand of God until his enemies at his feet. (Psalms 110:1)

Matthew 26:64 "You have said it yourself," Jesus answered. "But I say to all of you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."

According to Paul, Satan is the one who comes as an angel of light, by which men are blinded, as was supposedly done with Paul in the wilderness. God works by way of the anointing of the Spirit of God, not by demons or angels of light. If you want to see angels, you will have to wait for the coming of the son of man (Matthew 24).

Paul declares himself as an apostle. According to Yeshua, someone who pats their own back is a liar.(John 5:31). One who commits fraud is cursed according to Yeshua, and Paul committed fraud by being a Gentile to the Gentile, and a Pharisee of Pharisees to the Pharisees. Paul's thorn in the sign, would be a curse bestowed by his god Satan.

New American Standard Bible John 5:31
“If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.

Paul was the messenger of the "devil", and his message was the tare seed, which applies to those who commit lawlessness (Matthew 13:39-42), who will be gathered and tossed into the furnace of fire (great tribulation).

Yeshua's message was the kingdom, which is built around justice and righteousness. Paul's false gospel of grace, is a message of lawlessness, which ends with "destruction" (Matthew 7:13-15). The coming Har-Magedon (Revelation 16:16), and the valley of judgment (Joel 3:2) are about judgment upon the nations/Gentiles, and the restoration of Judah (Joel 3:1), and thereafter Ephraim (Ezekiel 37).

 

[2ndpillar]

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Paul is a Servant of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ and Inspired teacher of Elohim/God. All his letters in the Christian Canon are Original True Christian Doctrine.

While the official Christian Canon is all True and Accurate, the Roman Catholic Church has led astray their flock with False Doctrinal Interpretations. The Roman Catholic Church has dominion over all 2.2 Billions of Christians in Christendom including all Protestants.

It is "those who dwell on the earth" who are "deceived" by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", who is Constantine, the establisher of your "Catholic", universal Christian church which produced your canon. (Revelation 13). It is the "many" who follow the "false prophets" to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13-15). It is the "tare seed", the message of the devil, mixed with the message of the son of man, which produces the tares, "those who commit lawlessness", and "wickedness" who will be thrown into the furnace of fire. (Matthew 13). Quoting the false prophet Paul, will get you no brownie points. That would be the message of the devil mixed with the message of the son of man (Matthew 13). This is the "end of the age", when the angels will come and pluck out those who commit lawlessness, and who are stumbling blocks. (Matthew 13:30-42).

 

[2ndpillar]

O, Paul was an apostle chosen by the risen Lord. He was also a Pharisee before his conversion. It's clear that he knew the Hebrew scriptures well, and quotes from them to justify his new doctrine.

Keep in mind, the devil also quoted Scripture in order to tempt Yeshua. The pope, the supposed heir of Peter, probably knows Scripture, but never the less, he will "fall", and all those hanging on to him, will be "cut off" (Isaiah 22:25). Paul's church, the "flock" "doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7), who was shepherded by two shepherds, Peter and Paul, is "doomed".

 

[Redemptionsong]

I am aware I have this life to live and be accountable for. I make no assumptions of reincarnation or an afterlife. I like those ideas, but they are too absurd to think are plausible. These ideas point to the greed of the ego, and how the ego fears it's end. For the ego to pretend there is more after death is an illusion that isn't attractive to me.


Why not Islam or Hinduism? Are you aware of how you were indoctrinated and taught to believe in your religion?


Scripture is irrelevant. You were taught to interpret and believe the Bible means a certain thing, and you are complicit in this social conditioning. For various reasons you were open to being influenced.


Sure, this idea ws designed to appeal to the fear of deaths and it exploits people who allow their fear to drive their decisions. It's a tarp and you subconsciously fell for it. It's comfortable, but it still takes a lot of work for you to maintain this illusion, and keep the fear at the forefront of your experience.

The exploited believer thinks they are free from death, but they don't live free from fear.


I'm not attracted to illusions and false concepts in religions. I can feel how tempting some of these ideas are to my emotions, but I am self-reflective and honest with myself, and can reject these without much effort. This is discipline of mind.


Why can't you be your own person?

I know it's hard for you to accept, but l came to faith through reading the scriptures! I was not indoctrinated, or fed the teaching of a particular denomination. As a student, l read the NT and was struck by the truth of Jesus' words. So began my journey into faith.

Since that time l have had ample opportunity to read about, and listen to, the claims made by other faiths; but none have touched my heart as Jesus Christ has done. I put this down to the power of the Word, which is described as 'sharper than a two-edged sword'.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ok, thanks. But is an undecided person going to heaven or hell?

Well, if Jesus says you're either for him or against him, l don't see that there's room for a 'middle path'. Do you?