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Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?
- Thread starter We Never Know
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SA Huguenot
Well-Known Member
If you say Jesus never preached the atonement of sin, but it came from the "After- Cross Gospel", what does this mean?
It is a totally new concept for me.
And do you believe in the New Testament?
SA Huguenot
Well-Known Member
Thanks, I never thought of it in this way.
This means that after the Nebular formation of the Solar Sustem, there was still huge ammounts of ennergy floating around particles.
This might be why everything, including humans, animals, and plants radiating light.
Thanks for this one.
Mmmmm, Genesis> E = mc²
Who would have thought.
Colt
Well-Known Member
It means that the original Gospel that Jesus taught for 3+ years that angered the religious authorities in Jerusalem is different from the after-cross Gospel about Jesus as some primitive sacrifice for sins! The original "good news" Gospel before the cross was unintentionally replaced by a complicated religion about Jesus after he returned to heaven.
ElishaElijah
Return
Everyone rejected Jesus, the Jews, Pilate, the people. You and I would’ve done the same. I see how God has shown throughout history what He was going to accomplish through Christ. Jesus is the Passover Lamb, the sacrifice, without blemish, examined, his blood covers us. The Atonement- He is the High Priest who presents His own Blood as the atonement for our sins. This is not speculation as you say, actually you are speculating and not sure where you came up with your views on the atonement.
Colt
Well-Known Member
That's not true at all, his apostles accepted his Gospel as well as believers long before the tragic rejection of that Gospel represented by the cross. (1) Apostle Judas betrayed him, but Jesus had a number of followers.
Jesus never taught Christianity's atonement doctrine, Jesus taught salvation by faith in the Father and the responsibility that comes with being a son of God.
The biggest obstacle that Jesus was confronted with was closed minded religious people who's inflexible doctrine and dogma hated the Loving mercy taught by Jesus.
Speak for yourself and don't speculate about weather I would have rejected the Gospel of the Kingdom. I accepted it from the first time I heard it.
Matthew 4
23Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed—and He healed them.
25 The large crowds that followed Him came from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.
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ElishaElijah
Return
All the disciples were scattered at His crucifixion, of course they returned after He rose from the dead. Where were all those people He healed when He was being crucified, who spoke up? Even after He rose there were 120 in the upper room.
“Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: ‘I will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’ But after I have been raised, I will go before you to Galilee.” Peter answered and said to Him, “Even if all are made to stumble because of You, I will never be made to stumble.” Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.””
Matthew 26:31-34 NKJV
Colt
Well-Known Member
That's right, believers in Jesus, particularly his Apostles, were also on the wanted list. They went into hiding but emerged after the trial and more so after the resurrection. The enemies of Jesus would have sought to put them through a trumped up trial before the Sanhedrin as well. Jesus also foretold the coming destruction of Jerusalem and to get out when they saw the signs.
ElishaElijah
Return
True they were afraid of the Jews but still didn’t believe.
“Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.”
Mark 16:14 NKJV
ElishaElijah
Return
The Gospel hasn’t changed:
“Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.”
I Corinthians 15:1-8 NKJV
Colt
Well-Known Member
Belief in his resurrection, that’s not about the original gospel that they had already believed and had been teaching and preaching for several years. They were bewildered and “doubted” news from the women that Jesus returned from death.
Colt
Well-Known Member
That’s Paul’s atonement theory Gospel about Jesus.
Jesus taught a Gospel about salvation through faith in his Father. The Jews rejected that Gospel.
We weren’t supposed to kill the messenger. The gospels were written well into Paul’s preaching. They contain some of the red letter fragments of the original Gospel of Jesus.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Matthew 21:33-46
New International Version
The Parable of the Tenants
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
New International Version
The Parable of the Tenants
...."‘They will respect my son"????
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41 “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44 Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”
45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46 They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
Sin is going against the will/wishes of your chosen deity.
So if people are "born sinners" it would seem to mean that their being born is against the will/wishes of their chosen deity.
Which only makes sense if one believes that newborns have already chosen a deity.
ElishaElijah
Return
The same Gospel all the Apostles preached in Acts, this is the Word of God and not a theory.
ElishaElijah
Return
Jesus already had been preparing them about his death, burial and resurrection. He didn’t keep this a secret
Colt
Well-Known Member
I'm talking about before the cross, before the Gospel changed.
Christians naturally want to go to the new after-cross Gospel about Jesus being made into a human sacrifice to finally please God. Sadly it overlooks the original Gospel of The Kingdom. It makes Jesus insincere in trying to reach the Jews. "He came to that which was his own but his own did not receive him".
Colt
Well-Known Member
On several occasions he mentioned that his gospel would be rejected and even killed. Naturally they didn't want to hear that, they Loved him. The Apostles believed Jesus to be the Jewish Messiah. Even after he left they believed he would "soon return".
But they didn't understand in the last days what was going to happen.
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God;a believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?b 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going.
”5“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?
”6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves.
ElishaElijah
Return
Jesus hadn’t died and rose from the dead yet. His ministry and teaching was all proof that He was indeed the Messiah, God the Son who the Prophets spoke about. God the Father had been revealing this from the beginning and the time was right for Jesus to show up.
“But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”
Galatians 4:4-7 NKJV