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Featured Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by We Never Know, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't even know what you are talking about when you say "the original gospel".
    There is only one gospel and that is what we got when Jesus died for our sins. This was for the Jews and the gentiles and both the Jews and gentiles had been involved in the death of Jesus.
    There was no Gospel until Jesus was killed.
    Do you say that the preaching of Jesus was the gospel and that there was no need for Jesus to have died?
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Anything can be written in a book but that does not mean it is literally true. I do not believe that Adam and Eve were real people who lived, so whatever it says about them is also metaphorical.
    Death, pain, disease, and suffering exist because we live in a material world that God created, so if anyone is to blame, God is to blame, not Adam and Eve. Yes indeed, God created us to live in this sorrowful state.

    Humans are busy dying because God created us as mortal beings, not because Adam and Even ate an apple.

    The sins of humans are the sins they commit after they are born. God created us and we were good, as the Bible says, but we have two natures, a higher spiritual nature and a lower material (sinful) nature, and since we have free will we are free to choose to act in accordance with one or the other of those natures.
    No, the Bible does not support your belief that our physical bodies were created to live forever. That is a Church doctrine that came about from a misunderstanding of what the verses mean.…

    Paul said that the glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. That means that there are two different kinds of bodies, not a physical body that was changed into another kind of body.

    Our physical bodies will die and we will be raised as spiritual bodies. What that means is that our soul will leave our body and God will give us a spiritual body. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

    1 Corinthians 15:40-54 New Living Translation

    40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

    44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

    50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

    51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

    54 Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die,[c] this Scripture will be fulfilled: “Death is swallowed up in victory.[d]


    Read full chapter

    This is no different from what Baha’is believe.

    “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

    Eternal life has nothing to do with duration of life; it is a state of the soul that is near to God. The soul is immortal so all souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world but only those who are close to God will have eternal life.
    Heaven and hell are not geographical locations where people go; they are states of the souls that are near to God or far from God, respectively. The reason that those who believe in Jesus have eternal life is because they are close to God.

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.


    The following short video explains what I believe about heaven and hell.

     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I think we need to take into consideration that the elements Peter mentions is Not the Periodic Table of today.
    Rather, it's the elements or elementary things destroyed.
    In Scripture 'fire' can stand for destruction. Such as the wicked destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35.
    So, what will be wiped out is Not Earth but the trouble makers - Psalms 37:9-11,29; Revelation 11:18 B.
    Remember the literal heavens did Not pass away or destroyed in Noah's day - 2 Peter 3:5
    Rather, corrupted governments that are like 'heavens' over humanity will end - Daniel 2:44
    So, the elements that will be dissolved are what is decadent in human society.
    Just as it was in 'Noah's day' according to Jesus at - Matthew 24:37.
    In Noah's day there was No destruction of Earth. Earth is solidly placed -> Ecclesiastes 1:4 B; Psalms 104:5.
    Remember the ' executional words from Jesus' mouth' do Not destroy Earth but the wicked on Earth.
    - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
    If Earth was to be destroyed there would be No reason or need for Isaiah to write what he did at Isaiah 26:20.
    Rather, it is MAN with MAN's doom-and-gloom Doom's Day Clock with its hands set close to striking the dark midnight hour, whereas the Bible teaches about a bright new millennial dawning coming.
    Jesus is bringing Not destruction of Earth but bringing 'healing' for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2.
     
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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In Scripture I find it was Not the gentile people of nations involved, but according to Luke at Acts of the Apostles 3:12-15 it was the 'men of Israel'. Please also see Acts of the Apostles 5:30.
    In other words, the Jews were held culpable because of community responsibility by failing to bring Jesus to justice according to the Constitution of the Mosaic Law at Deuteronomy 21:1-9.
     
  5. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    to which you have a right to believe.
    First of all, believing it not to be true, does not make it false.
    The fact is that Adam and Eve is in an ancient story being recorded with the creation of the Solar system, which was postulated in 1755 by Kant as the nebular theory, proven to be correct in 1925 by Hubble, makes it highly viable that Genesis is actually an incredibly valueable document of authenticity.
     
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  6. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    If you choose to ignore the fact that Genesis said that God created Man as an immortal being, and through sin Man became a mortal being who suffers for this life we have now, it is up to you.

    I find it very interesting that the Atheist accuses God of death, sickness and suffering, but when God say you can obtain eternal life and be comforted in eternity with a simple, "God, please save me!", the atheist laughs in God's face.
    Are they all realy happy with these events they so complain about?
    Or is is an excuse they use to soothe their minds for knowing they are wrong?
    I dont know, please inform.
     
  7. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I have never said that our physical bodies were created to be immortal.
    I said that Adam and Eve was created immortal, and their bodies could not age, it was covered with Light, and they lost this light and immortality the day they sinned.
    I also said that Jesus said no flesh and Blood will enter heaven, and on a later stage he told the apostles after rising from the dead, that He does not have any blood in his body, but flesh and bone.
    just thereafter, this body of flesh and bone was taken into heaven, and was covered with a bright light.
    This was the same type of body Adam and Eve had when they still did not sin.
    And just as Paul said, these bodies we will get will be just as the one Jesus had.
    Jesus was the second Adam, the physical descendent of Adam, through the seed of the Woman, Eve and Mary.
     
  8. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I read this quote, and on the surface sounded verry intelligent, untill I read it again.
    Whoever wrote this is seriously ignorant of what the Bible says, and is making up some story to suit his view and bias.

    let me explain.
    God made Adam and Eve to be immortal people in His immage.
    God used the soil of the Earth, natural elements from the created universe, to create the human.
    This was what God wanted, a CREATED HUMAN MADE FROM ELLEMENTS HE CREATED!

    this human He made was perfect, and had a body in His immage, covered with light and immortal.
    period.

    What this person you refer to is saying, No, this physical form of body we have will not be the one going to heaven, (so far I agree), but it will be made up of elements in the heavenly realm.

    What this guy says is that God will make some other body than what Adam and Eve had, and it will not contain the elements we know off.
    Realy, so when God created the Human to be His friend to love Him, and vice versa, he did not make the human good enough?
    does this guy even know that God walked and talked with Adam every day?

    I think Abdulbaia must go and read the Bible before making himself out as some Bible student.
    Adam was not only God's friend, but God's son!

    Why will God have to continue to tweak His created being to become better.
    Sorry for Abdul, but when God created Adam and Eve, he made them the ultimate model not to be improved.
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    That's true and the Jews should have known better. The Gentiles were represented in the form of the Romans however even if Jesus asked for their forgiveness because they did not know what they were doing.
     
  10. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    “Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.””
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    Doesn’t sound like doom and gloom to me, this is all good news. Everyone is invited, well most everyone.
     
    #130 ElishaElijah, Mar 30, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  11. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    "The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God."


    Had the Jews received the Son and the Gospel of the Kingdom, Jerusalem wouldn't have been destroyed, they would be preaching it today from the second Temple and Jesus would have returned to heaven without being largely rejected and killed.


    The death and resurrection was an enormous "turning of the other cheek" in transition from the Jewish soil of his rejection to the Western Gentile world who was found to be more receptive.


    The "original Gospel" is what Jesus and the apostles lived, preached and taught for 3+ years before Jesus was apprehended by those who did not like what he taught. It was The Gospel of The Kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 4


    23Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed—and He healed them.

    25The large crowds that followed Him came from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

    It was the original "good news" Gospel that the people heard and were saved by. It was the Gospel that was a threat to the religious authorities of Judaism. That should be obvious???? See the spies, the "Woes" and the final indictment of the Jews for what they did to the deliverer.


    Their was the religion OF Jesus. After he left, after the cross a new religion ABOUT Jesus emerged and blended with existing Pagan ideology such as the atonement doctrine.

    Jesus had already been teaching that God is a forgiving Father and we are his children. That by faith in his Gospel of the Father we are justified certainly not rejecting his message and killing him!
     
    #131 cOLTER, Mar 30, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  12. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    So before the fall, what did adam, eve and the other animals eat?

    So, according to your religion, you are "guilty" of being human and conveniently that same religion which declares this, also supposedly provides the "only" cure.

    Isn't that a bit suspicious?
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It was necessary that Jesus died for the forgiveness of our sins. That is not a later addition. Jesus blood is the blood of the New Covenant and the OT points to a Messiah who would be rejected and die for our sins.
    Jesus is the High Priest in His own sacrifice and is the Priestly mediator between us and His Father.
    Jesus ransom sacrifice is taught by Jesus and if His death was not necessary He would not have come to earth to die, as He said He did.
     
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  14. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    Fruit and plants. However keep in mind that everything in the universe was different than what we know today.
    humans, animals and plantlife was without death and radiating with light.
    Only after the fall did God kill the first animals to cloth Man in their skin.
    Only after the Fall did the Man give sin offerings to God.

    I can deduct that the Earth before the Fall of Man was much different than current, due to the same description that Genesis gave about Adam, can be applied to all lofe on the Earth at that time.
    Everything was affected by the deception of Sayan, and Man's sin.
    Paul rightly saus that the whole of creation Groans due to the sin Man brought into their lifes.

    I am guilty because of the Sin of Adam.
    At least, this physical body of mine is full of sin.
    Keep in mind that the word sin actually means, death.
    therefore, I am dead, but my spirit and my Mind are not.
    That was the part of my existance as a mirror of the Trinity, does not die.
    My Mind and my Spirit will never die, but the body will.
    This is the body which will be replaced by the ressurection in Jesus.
    A body without any death in it.
    Or shall we say, a sinless body.

    If you believe you are without sin, it will be a bit difficuilt to explain why one ages to eventually die.

    And yes, lets call it suspicious.
    Suspicious that an ancient story was carried throughout 4000 years, to be fullfilled in detail 2 000 years ago, only to be accepted by first of all, the Jews who knew much more about the description in the scriptures of the Trinity, and the Messiah who were to rise from the dead.
    Suspicious that 2000 years ago, more than 15 000 people witnessed Jesus's crucifiction, more than 500 witnessed Jesus walking and talking with people, and witnesses seing Him ascending to heaven.
    This is so suspicious that there were countless people killed for refusing to change their story, to deny the ressurection of Jesus, all this when Paul and the Apostles still lived and were killed one by one.
    It was also suspicious when the apostles wrote their letters, and compileed the 4 books of the gospel, during this time when the people who knew Jesus, never said a single thing about these writings was some concoction made up by the apostles.
    These people, who at first were Jews scattered throughout Greece, Rome, and the levant, immediately knew that this Gospel taught by the apostles, was the truth, and they investigated their scriptures, and accepted Jesus as God.

    Yes, suspicious, like the High priest and Sanhederin were for they hated the truth in their core.
     
  15. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    So lions, leeches, tigers, spiders,... They didn't eat other animals? :rolleyes:

    In any case, fruits and plants are living cells, which die when eaten and consumed.
    So unless animals ate inorganic / synthetic food or were able to draw energy from photosynthesis or alike, death very much was part of the world before the fall.


    Only in your iron age stories, off course.

    The evidence of reality paints quite a different picture.



    WOOSH! That was my point flying over your head.

    Entropy.

    Not that I need to explain why stuff ages and dies though.
    I could say "i don't know" and that wouldn't raise the credibility of your claims at all.



    Preaching is not going to help you in supporting your claims.
     
  16. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    That's all after cross speculation (Jesus never taught that he came to earth to atone for sin) The new after-cross Gospel conflicts with Jesus' labor to preach his Gospel message. Blood sacrifice was a contamination of Judaism and Christianity as well.

    I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. 38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

    “If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

    “We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!


    How can anyone listen to Jesus rip the Pharisees yet claim that he was supposed to be a human sacrifice for sin??????


    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

    30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

    31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

    33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

     
  17. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    “But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:11-15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
     
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  18. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    Nope, they did not eat other anomals.
    What is that quote, the lamb will lie next to the lion....
    Oh, and dont forget, I also said that plantlife were also different.
    I am of opinion that everything before Man's Fall was ennergy.
    Why would everything be shining light?
     
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  19. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Speculation and conjecture which is in conflict with the scathing beat down Jesus gave the Jews who finally rejected the original gospel and their calling!

    Your quote is "rationalizing away" the rejection and murder of Jesus. Paul never knew there was an original, pre cross Gospel of salvation. So he explains his own personal opinions and theology through the mind of someone who already believed in Pagan sacrifices.
     
  20. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I do apologise if you find that part "preaching."
    But, how else can I tell you about what the reason for death and Life is?
    Remember, I simply took the Biblical description on why we are ageing.
    And what we need to do to gain everlasting life.
    It is quite difficult to relay the Gospel, If one of the forum's rules is not to preach.
    However, that is the point I quoted from the Biblical viewpoint.
    it is up to you to accept everlasting life, or not.
     
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