1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by We Never Know, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,572
    Ratings:
    +6,245
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Maybe you could just help @Trailblazer and me out here, because we both appear to be confused. Perhaps if you could explain which sin, specifically, a newborn baby is guilty of having committed, we could understand your position better.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. We Never Know

    We Never Know My beard is as real as most things you read

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    5,513
    Ratings:
    +3,404
    Religion:
    It exists
    From my wife's family....

    We are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the spirit of god, we will never see the kingdom of god

    John 3:3 (ESV)
    3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    48,775
    Ratings:
    +4,891
    knowledge IS the fast track

    Man had been on the earth as a species......
    no names ....no garden.... no law

    go forth.....be frutiful....dominate all things

    all fine and good.....until that snatch and run habit evolved
    coupled to that urge to control

    and we began to dominate each other

    the garden event was an experiment to reset the course of Man
    BEFORE we overrun the resources of this planet

    Adam and Eve.....passed the test
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,572
    Ratings:
    +6,245
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Did you notice that you didn't actually answer my question? I did. I didn't ask about what it is human nature to do. I asked what sin a newborn baby is guilty of having committed. Are you going to answer me or not?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1,573
    Ratings:
    +464
    Religion:
    Disciple
    "Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals. ."
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,572
    Ratings:
    +6,245
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    YES! And for people who don't believe in God, it's deliberately going against what their conscience tells them is wrong.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2010
    Messages:
    3,302
    Ratings:
    +388
    Not sure I know what you mean....

    ...but there is the knowledge humans can gain from their limited perspective and experience -which they hopefully don't lose in various dark ages, etc...

    ..Vs the knowledge of the original who designed and initiated the physical universe...

    Even our temporary lives are by our design.
    Consider the difference between God simply transferring our selves into invulnerable bodies after we are made responsible and righteous....

    ...vs humans taking the step by step path toward self-designing to immortality. It would be a long, slow mess at best - would not benefit anyone who lived prior -and would still not solve our basic problems.
     
  8. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1,573
    Ratings:
    +464
    Religion:
    Disciple
    It’s not sin that we inherit rather it’s an environment marred by rebellion, separation and confusion. It’s the influence of a bad neighborhood.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    48,775
    Ratings:
    +4,891
    I have not discounted reincarnation....
    I have reason to hold off on that

    otherwise......each birth is a NEW opportunity to form a unique spirit
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    18,822
    Ratings:
    +1,401
    Religion:
    Christian
    Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    18,822
    Ratings:
    +1,401
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe those bad neighbors were born.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    18,822
    Ratings:
    +1,401
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that we don't remember much but there is still baggage that comes with us into a new life. Like Pilgrim in Pilgrim's Progress it is a great relief to offload the baggage.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    26,880
    Ratings:
    +7,811
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    It does not say we were BORN in sin. It says we have all sinned.
     
  14. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1,573
    Ratings:
    +464
    Religion:
    Disciple
    Those neighbors were influenced by the betrayal of Lucifer, a son of God who's rebellion infected our world.
     
  15. alypius

    alypius Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2020
    Messages:
    158
    Ratings:
    +28
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Isn't a different thing to say that 'all have sinned' and 'all are born sinners'?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    Original sin is mentioned in the Old Testament. Original Sin | Encyclopedia.com

     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    35,207
    Ratings:
    +16,745
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    It is not at all explicit, thus there's been many debates amongst theologians as to what it actually is. The idea that a child somehow inherits sin is the traditional view but that seems nonsensical to many others, including myself.

    The word "sin" means "to miss the mark", so how could a newborn "miss the mark"? And if we supposedly inherit such sin, if your grandfather committed murder should we put you on trial for murder as well?

    Some theologians believe it's likely more to be a reference to the fact that we will sin at times because we live in an imperfect world, plus we ourselves are imperfect, thus well be tempted to go against God's will, and we likely will sometimes.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    Ezekiel 18:10-20 is talking about family members and their descendants in general, not about Adam having dominion over all of creation, including his descendants. To understand what a Bible verse means you have to know the context. When you read the Bible over and over again, you notice things that you didn't notice before. Original sin is mentioned in the Old Testament and Ezekiel 18:10-20 is consistent with it because it's not a verse talking about original sin.

     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    35,207
    Ratings:
    +16,745
    Religion:
    ecumenical & naturalistic Catholic
    So, should we arrest and try you on crimes committed by your previous relatives? C'mon, that doesn't make even one iota of sense.

    Instead, what many theologians believe is that it is a reference to the fact that when we sin we not only harm ourselves but also our family is often tainted and affected by our sin as well. This especially is compatible with the ancient view that what we do has an impact on our family and others, plus there's the fact that we will sin at times because none of us are perfect.

    However, I will admit that my viewpoint above is not entirely compatible with what the Church came to believe along this line centuries later, especially in regards to infant baptism "for the forgiveness of sins".
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    6,656
    Ratings:
    +338
    Religion:
    Christian
    Infant baptism is not taught in the Bible. Babies are not accountable because they are not old enough to understand about Jesus. John Calvin The Tyranny And Heretic EXPOSED!

     
Loading...