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Featured Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by We Never Know, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    I assume you also do not believe in the Trinity where Jesus is the Word (Mind) of YHWH, the Holy Ghost the Spirit of YHWH, and the Father the Existance( body ) of YHWH?
    and that you were made in the immage of YHWH with a Conscience, Spirit and Body. (of which the body was corrupted during the fall of Adam.
    In this regard, with the Trinity, it would mean that the Father sent his Word, Jesus, to be born as a human, to age as one and to die as one, after which He rose from the dead to be the first to obtain immortality as a human.
    Do you believe this?
     
  2. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    On several occasions He mentioned that HE would be rejected and even killed. Before Jesus death and resurrection there was good news (gospel) that the Messiah had come but the Jews wanted a different thing from the Messiah and the Jewish leaders thought they were right and knew Jesus could not be the Messiah if He condemned them and their teachings.
    Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God because that is what He was going to implement with His death and resurrection and the gathering of the citizens of the Kingdom, those who believed Him and obeyed Him and were Born of God.
     
  3. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Enoch and Elijah went to heaven so the theory that Jesus was the first is debunked.

    YHWH was the name of the God of the Sini volcano adopted by the Israelites during their stay there. It became the name of their national deity. Jesus never called himself YHWH because he wasn't. Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God without elaborating further about that office, leaving much speculation and conjecture about his true identity as a divine Son. He implied that his person is ancestral to the Universal Father, but in divinity they are indistinguishably unified.
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Israel reflect what is written in the servant songs, but not fully. They could not and have not fulfilled those songs. To say it is about the Messiah is saying that it is about a member of the nation of Israel and that the nation of Israel fulfilled the songs fully through that one Jew.
     
  5. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    "The Kingdom of Heaven in within you"

    Jesus established the spiritual kingdom of believers in the Fatherhood of God and Brotherhood of man several years before his tragic rejection and unjust death. The Jews rejected his Gospel, they simply refused to share their God with the Gentile world. Jesus had mentioned that the death and resurrection would be proof of his authority to teach the original Gospel as well as his divinity. A new Gospel and focus emerged after Jesus left.
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    If it were not for Jesus fulfilling the OT prophecies, He would be a nobody who came and was executed. The prophecies show a rejected and killed and risen Messiah. The prophecies show the Easter message and Jesus taught His disciples that message also. They pieced it together after He rose from the dead, but the risen Jesus also helped them to piece it together when He came to them and explained the OT scriptures to Him, so that they knew that the Messiah was supposed to suffer and die.
    Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.
     
  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus taught faith in Jesus. See John 3:16.
    Jesus did not come to abolish the Law and Prophets but to fulfil them.
    In part He fulfilled them by being the Passover Lamb and the atonement sacrifice.
    He was the better sacrifice which could actually take away their sins and not just cover them.
     
  8. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The Jews developed erroneous ideas about a Jewish Messiah based on the teachings of ancient seers that a "deliverer" was coming into the world. While the Son of God incarnate was that deliverer, he wasn't, he could not be the hoped for Jewish Messiah they expected. But Jesus met the Jews half way and stretched as much as he could within the framework of their confused expectations.

    The religion of Jesus, the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, was to become the common heritage of all religions in the world. All religions could benefit from his original teachings. But a new religion about Jesus emerged shortly after he left. In an age to come the world will once again hear the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.

    "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse."
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Faith is a gift from God but without having heard what to believe or who to have faith in, how can we have faith? Do we have faith in faith?
     
  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not come to earth and explain to the Jewish leaders that they must kill Him so that He could be the atoning sacrifice for sin. Yet He knew that would happen.
    Jesus came to judge the Jews and it was wrong of them to look to kill Him. He does not conflict with the explanations of the gospel in the epistles.
     
  11. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Jesus never taught that he was a sacrifice, he taught justification by faith, salvation by a change of heart, restoration of right relations with the Father. See The Parodical Son.

    Jesus taught forgiveness by receiving it from the Father and in turn forgiving others. No connection to blood sacrifices. That's speculation on the part of sacrifice minded men who became followers of Jesus.

    The backwards claim that Jesus came to be a sacrificial Lamb is debunked by Jesus beat down of those evil people who rejected his Gospel:


    37I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. 38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

    “If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

    “We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

    The message Jesus taught for 3+ years was already complete. The cross was simply the last of his miracles. Its how the Father and Son decided to wash their hands of the unbelieving Jews.
     
    #271 cOLTER, Apr 1, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  12. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Double minded will, atonement proponents claim it was Gods will that the Son die as a sacrifice.......but then God judges the Jews for doing so? That inconsistency emerged because the atonement doctrine is a corruption and requires absurd mental gymnastics to try to make it work.
     
  13. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Where does Jesus teach us this gospel that you say He taught for 3 years? Give us some passages that show a different gospel.
    But while you do that don't ignore that Jesus came to die for our sins as a ransom sacrifice.

    John 12:26 If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, My servant will be as well. If anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him. 27 Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? No, it is for this purpose that I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name!” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”

    Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”
     
  14. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    What intellectually honest person could listen to Jesus' blistering condemnation of Jerusalem yet conclude that the Jews were doing the right thing in killing Jesus as a sacrifice????


    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell? 34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.Luke 13:31–35)

    37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.
     
  15. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    God shows His love by sending His Son so that those who believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
    Jesus opens up the way to having peace with His Father by His sacrifice with gives us permanent access to the Father without having to offers animals as sacrifice to cover our sins. Jesus is the Prince of Peace (Isa 9:6)
    Jesus taught about the Kingdom but that did not start till after Jesus died and rose again, when the Gospel could be preached and people would have the risen Jesus to put their trust in.
     
  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It's no good picking and choosing what you want to believe.
    God wanted Israel to have the sacrifices and so put it in the Law and gave them priests etc. After Israel started just using the sacrifices to feel right before God and did not bother with actually keeping the rest of the Law, and loving God and their neighbour, that is why God sent Isaiah and others to tell Israel that God was not happy with that. The passage needs to be understood right and in context and not just picked out and used because it is what you believe.
     
  17. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 4

    Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed—and He healed them.

    25The large crowds that followed Him came from Galilee, the Decapolis,f Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

    Considering that The cross hasn't happened yet, at the end his apostles didn't even know he was leaving, his true identity was a secret among the apostles, yet ------>Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, that Gospel could not be what it was after the cross.

    * The original "good news" people heard before the cross wasn't Jesus dyeing for sin or that he was the Jewish Messiah. All that was speculation in retrospect.

    * That original Gospel that Jesus taught in Galilee was very different. The religious authorities did not like that Gospel!
     
  18. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    You pick and choose what you want to believe because you were taught Pagan sacrifice first before going back and listening to Jesus. You are forced to ignore and gloss over Jesus' objections to those who rejected and killed him.
     
  19. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Luke 17:20 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21 Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.

    The Kingdom is not just one person, you, or me, it is many and the translation should no doubt be that the Kingdom is in your midst. The Kingdom will come slowly and unobserved because the members will be walking around like everyone else who is not in the Kingdom.
    It is not until Jesus returns that the full glory of the Kingdom and of Jesus will be revealed.
     
  20. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

    God shows his Love by revealing the true Father in his Son on earth who was himself Loving and Forgiving without requiring sacrifices. Jesus never required a blood sacrifice to Love and forgive people.
     
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