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Featured Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by We Never Know, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    All you are doing is telling me what your religion claims on the matter.

    Indeed.

    Actually, it is upto you to provide actual evidence for the claims you make, which would turn it from "preaching" into actually making a proper argument.
     
  2. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    No, that's not what it means at all.
     
  3. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

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    :)
     
  4. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    “And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:26-29‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    Jesus’ blood is shed for the remission of sins. You have another gospel if you think different.
     
  5. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations! That's what I've been trying to tell you. The Original Gospel that Jesus preached that the Jews rejected, the message for which he was killed, for which Israel was punished, was salvation by faith in the Father.

    The way the last supper was written about is in conflict with the previous teachings and positive efforts of the Son of God during his 3+ years of preaching to Israel. The hope was that Israel would accept the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven. Tragically they did not!
     
  6. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Jesus instituted the new covenant in His blood for the remission of sins, this was foreshadowed in the Feasts, fulfillment of the Law, Prophets and Psalms, Consistent in epistles and the New Testament. Christ the Passover sacrifice who is also the High Priest offering His own blood in Heaven for us.
     
  7. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Jesus established The Kingdom of Heaven which was largely lost by putting the new wine into the old wineskins. The Gospel that Jesus taught was contaminated by old thinking after he left. Killing Jesus as a human sacrifice overwhelmed and replaced the original Gospel. The Pagan world already believed in blood sacrifice to appease God.


    The Son of God was not on the same page with subsequent Christian theory.


    Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.Luke 13:31–35)

    37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.


    Mark 2:21, NIV: "No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse."
     
  8. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    “Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭3:10-17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    Why are you dismissing what Jesus says, He is also foreshadowed in the wilderness as He just showed here.
     
  9. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    And Jesus instituted the “new wine” in His blood at the Passover. The old wine is the righteousness that comes through the obeying the law, which no one can do and all fall short.
     
  10. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    I'm not dismissing it, I don't believe Jesus died for the cause of sin, I believe he lived for the cause of salvation. The cross was the last and most spectacular of the miracles of Jesus. His death and resurrection do draw people to the Jesus story. Jesus had explained that his death and return would prove his authority to preach the original, conceptually simple gospel of forgiveness and salvation by faith in the Father.

    The triumphant life of Jesus was forgotten and replaced by the death and resurrection.

    Why do you ignore Jesus' objections to being rejected and killed????? Were all the prophets killed by Israel also an atoning sacrifice????


    33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
     
  11. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    The new wine was his Gospel of spiritual liberty through faith in a personal relationship with the Father. The old wineskins is substituting blood sacrifices for a real change of heart, a real restoration of loyalty to the Father if one was separated.

    The original Gospel of the kingdom was real, transformative salvation.

    The Christian doctrine of the atonement is theoretical.
     
  12. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    So much of the confusion and inconsistency of the New Testament and Christian doctrine is due to the attempt by Jewish converts to the Jesus movement to justify their new faith in Jesus with their old religion of Judaism. They sought to bring their fellow Israelites to the Jesus movement by trying to create a seamless theological transition in sewing the new gospel onto the old garment. The erroneous original sin doctrine becomes satisfied by the theory that the Son of God came down from heaven to be a volunteer sinless animal substitute which would pave the way for Gods forgiveness.
     
  13. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Jesus Christ is the “Only” atoning sacrifice. There is no other, He is the One and Only sacrifice that the prophets were shown by God and spoke about.
     
  14. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Atonement isn’t theoretical, it’s clearly shown all through the Scriptures from beginning to end. Your gospel is what exactly?
     
  15. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Some of the Jewish converts were trying to say that the Gentile believers had to obey “the law” after they received Jesus as their Savior. Which was false as Acts and the epistles showed, mainly circumcision was brought up.
     
  16. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    That's your opinion, Jesus didn't teach atonement or sacrifice as a condition of his love for people. Jesus taught that God is a Loving Father. When Jesus loved and forgave people, he did not ask for birds and bunnies to be slaughtered as a condition of his love. God as a Father transcends God as a Judge.

    The original "good news" of the original Gospel was that God is a forging Father, he loves us as a Father.
     
  17. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Clear as mud. Blood atonement is Pagan and contaminated Judaism. Isaiah lamented over the ridiculous practice.

    Isaiah 1:10-20


    Meaningless Offerings

    10Hear the word of the LORD,

    you rulers of Sodom;

    listen to the instruction of our God,

    you people of Gomorrah!11“What good to Me is your multitude of sacrifices?”

    says the LORD.

    “I am full from the burnt offerings of rams

    and the fat of well-fed cattle;

    I take no delight in the blood of bulls

    and lambs and goats.12When you come to appear before Me,

    who has required this of you—

    this trampling of My courts?13Bring your worthless offerings no more;

    your incense is detestable to Me—

    your New Moons, Sabbaths, and convocations.

    I cannot endure iniquity

    in a solemn assembly.14I hate your New Moons

    and your appointed feasts.

    They have become a burden to Me;

    I am weary of bearing them.15When you spread out your hands in prayer,

    I will hide My eyes from you;

    even though you multiply your prayers,

    I will not listen.

    Your hands are covered with blood.16Wash and cleanse yourselves.

    Remove your evil deeds from My sight.

    Stop doing evil!17Learn to do right;

    seek justice and correct the oppressor.c

    Defend the fatherless

    and plead the case of the widow.”18“Come now, let us reason together,”

    says the LORD.

    “Though your sins are like scarlet,

    they will be as white as snow;

    though they are as red as crimson,

    they will become like wool.19If you are willing and obedient,

    you will eat the best of the land.20But if you resist and rebel,

    you will be devoured by the sword.”
     
  18. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Converting the rejection of Jesus on the cross and his turning of the other cheek (for which Jerusalem was destroyed) was converted into a final atoning sacrifice to satisfy preexisting erroneous doctrines of the blood sacrifices Judaism.

    Jesus had been teaching that the Father is forgiving, ask for it and forgive others.
     
  19. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

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    Ok so you accept some of the Bible
     
  20. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes, as do you.
     
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