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Are you a believer?

Discussion in 'Law' started by Gerry, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. Gerry

    Gerry Well-Known Member

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    I have discovered something that seems to characterize some people.


    Many of those who call themselves “believers” seem to believe in making many laws for non-believers to follow. Or another way to look at it: They believe they know how other people need to live their lives.


    What do you think?

    (I was a believer in 1966 when the Monkees wrote their song. Oops, now you know how old I am.)
     
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  2. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ahaṁ Brahmāsmi
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    I think it's less about being a believer than it is about what one believes that leads them to the tendency to tell others how to live.

    And I was born in 1966. I wasn't a believer then, and I'm still not.
     
  3. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I think believers are more prone to thinking that their material is the authority resource.

    Say for instance when a Christian uses the Bible to show 'this and that' in a discussion or debate. The person they may be discussing or debating with likely will not recognize the Bible as being anything worth considering or of note whenever it's being used.
     
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  4. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member

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    I'm not a believer, never was. But I don't have a problem with believers. They say they believe, I say I don't. As that is settled we can go drink a beer.
    You are referring to "knowers". People who are trapped in the illusion of knowledge. The knowledge that there is a god, that it is their god, that they know the will of their god and that they are justified in pushing the will of their god down my or others throat.
    Those people have to be taken down a peg. (One peg. Not necessarily to atheism but at least to a level where they can play nice with the other kids. The level of belief and accepting that belief is a nice thing to have but that it doesn't entitle them to be jerks.)
     
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  5. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Fortunately, believers can't seem to agree amongst themselves so they are usually too busy arguing with each other to get much done.
     
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  6. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Except in theocracies and groups who want to turn secular nations like ours into partial theocracies.
     
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  7. columbus

    columbus member

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    I believe that a clear daytime sky is blue.
    I believe that 2+3 =5
    I believe that humans don't know enough about the supernatural to make assertions about the Creator.

    Do all of these beliefs qualify me as a believer, by your standards?
    Tom
     
  8. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ahaṁ Brahmāsmi
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    Why would you believe something you have experienced first hand?
     
  9. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    Belief is a narrative constructed in the mind of the believer.

    When that same narrative is shared by others, it is religion or politics.

    When it is not shared by others it is mental illness.

    The absence of a narrative is one of the desirable outcomes of meditation.
     
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  10. columbus

    columbus member

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    Because I'm unable to stop believing such things?
    That's mostly what I believe. Premises with solid evidence, like the color of the sky


    Do you disbelieve that a clear daytime sky is blue? Do you think that I might be wrong in my belief on the subject?

    What?
    Tom
     
  11. columbus

    columbus member

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    I believe that a clear daytime sky is blue.
    Is that a religious belief? A political belief? A mental illness?
    What?
    Tom
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You raise a good point.....but I'd like to divide it into two separate issues because I believe that the Bible does this.

    Firstly, to whom did God give his Laws? Did he enforce them on any other nation? If it was only to Israel, then what does that indicate to you?
    It appears to me as if Israel was covenanted to God, (i.e. legally bound by entering into that agreement of their own free will. Exodus 19:7-8) then they were under obligation to abide by the terms of that covenant. I do not see God forcing any other nation to obey him...although some may have recognized him as the true God and joined themselves to his people. Then they would be under obligation to obey his laws.

    I can think of a few occasions where God's response to the wickedness or immorality of a particular people moved him to take action against them....notably the people of Noah's day, Sodom and Gomorrah....and Nineveh. Each time God sent his servants ahead to preserve lives that deserved mercy. In only one instance did the people en mass take any notice of God's warning and repent. All three of these occasions were before the Mosaic Law was written. Still God had no toleration of their evil activities. Was God expecting people who were not his worshippers to obey his laws? Or were there standards of morality that should be held in common so that all humans should obey them? If we are created in God's image and likeness, then our conscience should automatically dictate to us what is right and what is wrong. But what happens when people ignore their conscience?....nothing good.

    In Noah's case, God told him to build the structure that would preserve life through the end of that wicked world.
    He sounded the warning, but not a soul listened. Only Noah and his family worked hard for their own salvation.

    What about Sodom and Gomorrah? God's angels were sent after Abraham's plea bargaining with God over any righteous ones who might be found in the city......but only Lot and his wife and two daughters were saved.

    And Nineveh? Jonah had a tough assignment too, like Noah he was to preach to a very wicked people whose activities were abhorrent to God. After a rough start, Jonah finally delivered his message....but to his amazement, the whole city repented. Jonah was devastated! Now he looked like a complete idiot.....but should he have felt like that? God gave him a lesson in humility by showing him that mercy can be extended when people hear his message and respond accordingly.

    God always warns people of his intentions. Amos 3:7....
    "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing
    Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."


    Isaiah 42:9...
    "See, the first things have come to pass;
    Now I am declaring new things.
    Before they spring up, I tell you about them.”


    So should Christians try to force God's standards on people through the law of the land? Or is there just an obligation to tell people about God's intentions and allow them to make their own choices? What did Jesus do? His message was offered, not forced.

    Free will means that our future is in our own hands. But in his instructions to Ezekiel who was to sound a warning to the wayward Israelites of his day.....God said...
    "Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked course, he will die for his error, but you will certainly save your own life." (Ezekiel 3:17-19)

    What do you see there in that directive that gives us an obligation in view of the times we are living in?
    Its not that we force people to listen and to act on the message we preach....but there is an obligation to sound the warning, otherwise we become accountable before God for not passing it on....if they respond, it could save their life. If we renege on our responsibility, it could cost us ours.....

    Food for thought.

    Dang, now I can't get that song out of my head.....



    Old guys now.....and only two left. :( Davy Jones and Peter Tork both gone. I loved their wacky TV show.

    Boy I feel old. o_O
     
  13. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ahaṁ Brahmāsmi
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    It’s not about what I believe or disbelieve. It’s about knowledge realized through experience.

    I know I perceive the the daytime sky as blue because I’ve experienced it. I also know the daytime sky appears blue because of sunlight’s interaction with air molecules scattering shorter waves of light at high frequency because I’ve experienced testing and study of it.

    Knowledge gained through experience requires no belief.
     
  14. Howard Is

    Howard Is Lucky Mud

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    Different use of the word.
     
  15. columbus

    columbus member

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    What do you mean by "belief"?

    I'm confident that I believe that a daytime sky is blue. I believe that.
    Do you think I'm wrong?
    Wrong in what way?

    I don't understand what you're saying.
    Tom
     
  16. bobhikes

    bobhikes Nowoligist
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    I think its the other way around. People that want to make laws for other people use belief to justify them. There are many believers that keep to themselves or allow others there beliefs.
     
  17. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Ahaṁ Brahmāsmi
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    Definition of BELIEF

    I suppose I was using definition 2, while you’re apparently using definition 3.

    It appears we were using different definitions of the term belief. Apologies for the confusion.
     
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  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I believe when i fall in love it will be forever
     
  19. Mindmaster

    Mindmaster Well-Known Member
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    I'm never concerned with making people believe my way, but also I don't want the government or anyone else telling me how to live.

    But, there have to be some baselines... Society needs some agree upon rules or bad things happen.
     
  20. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

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    Eastern philosophy is based on a set of things made up of conduct, laws, and rites called the dharma, which is the order the universe is based on.
     
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