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Featured Are we wasting our lives?

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest that you re4ad more carefully, but reading comprehension is not your problem. Your problem is that when in a corner, you try to wiggle out. One of your methods is to misrepresent what someone has said.

    I did not demand proof as you asserted. I asked when you were going to present some evidence to support your assertion "that Truth is all of God"?
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for that.

    I'm looking for what you think is the quality that truth has which identifies it as truth. For me that quality is correspondence with objective reality, the world external to the self, the place where facts are found ─ which means truth is held to an objective standard. That's why in most cases the video evidence will be preferred to witness recollection, as our traffic courts daily show.

    Is that your view too? Or do you use some other test to determine whether something is true or not?
     
  3. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Ooh. Woo...

    Jack and Jill
    Went up the hill
    To fetch a pail of water
    Jack fell down
    And broke his crown,
    And Jill came tumbling after.​

    ...contains some deep spiritual meaning, even if the author was not aware of what it is.

    Ditto...
    Three blind mice. Three blind mice.
    See how they run. See how they run.
    They all ran after the farmer's wife,
    Who cut off their tails with a carving knife,
    Did you ever see such a sight in your life,
    As three blind mice?​



    This post contains some deep spiritual meaning, even if I am not aware of what it is.
     
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  4. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe I am on the path to "finding truth." When I hear something, or I am delivered some bit of what is perceived to be knowledge, I pursue finding out whether or not that piece of knowledge has its due course of evidence and logical/rational/real support at its base. I am in the business of finding out whether knowledge I can acquire in this world is useful and properly whole. And by "whole" I again mean that its sources have been vetted, and it withstands scrutiny and falsification. Information that does not meet sufficient criteria is either discarded, or filed for further examination as more evidence is awaited. This method of thinking helps me avoid all sorts of what you might call "sin", believe it or not. For example, "gossip" - I simply don't do it. And this is precisely because any information I hear from a source must be properly vetted before I accept it, and I will not spread any information I do not feel has properly met my standards of vetting. And so, when I am told some "juicy" bit of information about someone, that information is merely filed away, as if it were not true, to await further solidifying evidence. And that is just one, simple example.

    And I cannot help but to hold the opinion that this is a very foolish perspective. To my mind, a simple question destroys this "science is a gift" idea immediately. And that is: why did God wait so very long to deliver this "gift?" It seems very much more like man stumbled upon the thing called "science" himself. That is very much what the evidence we have actually indicates. And there is no evidence you will ever find or can ever point to that will indicate that science is a gift from God. None. Not one iota. And the evidence that man stumbled onto the modes of thinking and acting that comprise "science" is all too easy to point out. Humble beginnings, needing to be spread via like-minded individuals coming together and hashing out the "rules" for this line of thinking they kept using to discover things around them. If it was a gift, then it was certainly one marked "some assembly required," no?

    Then you are decidedly describing fictions and imaginings that are labeled "Truth." Because when I talk about something being "true", it is because it is something that no person (in their right mind) can deny. For instance, that gravity works upon us is true. It is as true for me as it is for you, and we share this notion, regardless whether we want to share it or not. Do you see the difference? If what you are calling "Truth" is malleable enough that anyone can decide for themselves what it is, then I honestly don't even believe it qualifies to be called "truth," does it? Look up any standard definition of the word "truth," and you will never see any mention of it being a thing "up for interpretation." Which is why I insist we are using different definitions of the word "truth," because the definition I rely on matches very well to what one could normally expect that word to mean - and yours does not.

    Here another problem - "gift us all knowledge." We certainly are nowhere near having acquired "all knowledge." How long does the "unwrapping" of this gift go on, do you think? It is like a slow burn kind of gift? And you mention the "religious scriptures" being sealed and hard to understand - almost as if you believe that the acquisition of scientific knowledge of our reality is somehow tied to strange and incoherent passages within scripture that will become clear once we have enough scientific understanding. "Science" does not care about scripture. It can't, by definition. Do you understand that? This is not something up for debate - unless you are using an entirely different definition of the word "science" also. Are you?

    This is not an "example," I'm afraid. This is a naked, unsupported assertion. A claim. One with no supporting evidence whatsoever. An actual example would be something that didn't make sense before we discovered something about the world, and once it was discovered, the passage became so clear as to leave NO ROOM FOR AMBIGUITY OR INTERPRETATION after that point. I know that you do not have such an example. You can't - because the texts you speak of were crafted by men, and science was utilized and solidified by men of an entirely different color. The two things have absolutely nothing to do with one another, and I believe it a fool's errand to attempt to force them so like the edges of puzzle pieces from two separate puzzles.


    Once again, not an example. Just some words. And this quoting you are doing, when it does not, at all, actually support your case is how I can know that your understanding is definitely not something I want any part of. And I can assess further that your worldview apparently offers you no worthwhile knowledge if these are the types of things that are on the "cutting edge" of the things your religion's adherents discuss amongst themselves.

    Again - the passages offer NOTHING TO PURSUE. Can you not see that? All they do is make simple claims. They offer no way to match the statements up with reality and verify their truth content. None. And so they should rightfully be ignored. They are nothing but the meanderings of some people who thought they sounded wise. There is truly nothing there - and you help to prove this to me also with your "whatever it means to you" attitude. If it can truly mean whatever it means to me - then I tell you - it means nothing, and, ironically, you MUST accept my assessment as being "the truth" for myself. You must... in accordance with your own twisted "logic."
     
    #124 A Vestigial Mote, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
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  5. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    There are many CLAIMS of precognitive dreams, none of which can be actually verified.
     
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  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    You have read what you wanted to see in the comment.

    I believe in the recorded word, as it was written with 100% Truth, by a 100% trustworthy source.

    That is what I have found.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Your choice to see it that way.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Perhaps you should consider whether sharing unsolicited knowledge from your heart might also be called proselytizing.
     
  9. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Yes, I see it does.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    I see Jesus was first crucified for that, all the while Jesus was just giving a Message that G_d appointed Him to do.

    The same happened to many that accepted that Message.

    Regards Tony
     
  11. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    It sounds like you are saying that you are theologically driven to share the unsolicited knowledge of your heart. So if you consider that whatever the driving force, when you share unsolicited information about your religious beliefs, other term that proselytizing. Coming to terms with that possibility may help you understand why you may have received warnings.
     
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  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Then there is other ways to look at it. It ties into this thread about are we wasting our time. If the heart can not offer the Truth about Faith, where will we find it? No faith driven by worldly senses lasts, or can be proven to be of G-d.

    Thus I ask why did you comment on this thread? You were invited to this thread to talk about the ultimate truth, your post says you accepted that invitation and thus I ask why have you have chosen to concentrate on another topic, why waste time? If we want to talk about the truth in faith, then it must come from the heart and things will be said that other have not considered and that others may reject. That is how a public open forum works.

    From a faith side and in line with this OP, if Jesus the Christ was a source of Truth from G_d, then a lot of people have a lot to answer for and that is just a plain and logical truth of how the history of faith has unfolded.

    Thus if you do wish to talk about how faith and Science may indeed lead to the same source, or offer thoughts why they do not, please continue. It may be, we can then not waste time on perceived subjective issues.

    Regards Tony
     
  13. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Who or what do you mean by "a 100% trustworthy source"?

    Please explain why this source is "100% trustworthy".
     
  14. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    What? No response? Is this just you wiggling again?
     
  15. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Please do so.
     
  16. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    See and review post #120.
     
  17. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Please do share it with us. Oops. You can't. Again.
     
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    You will need to look, if you want to.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    You put a middle man as evidence? The existence of middle-men is actually counter-evidence. Just because of simple logic.

    Ciao

    - viole
     
  20. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    One my see them as man, but they are the appointed 'Self of God' amongst us. They are born of a different Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

    But that is an entire Truth one must pursue for themselves, only if they choose to.

    If you wish to pursue, there is 5 levels of Spirit that maintains this creation.

    Regards Tony
     
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