Are we trying our best to as pagan as we can?

[firedragon]

Did we make up the physical values and divine values attributed to the "black stone"? Why do we pray to dead people? Do we venerate the Kaaba more than its meant to be? What about tombs? How about those we believe are the vicegerents of the prophet, all of this while we yet believe the prophet was nothing divine but a mere human being? What is this about evil eye, doing magic to hurt others, and doing counter magic to protect ourselves? Why sing songs of praise to a human being who is dead and actually believe that he visits us when we sing? Have not we anthropomorphised God, worshiped a human being, chanted and ranted around buildings, places, dates and magic though we also claim God is actually beyond all of this? Have we not taken a physical symbol, statues, a cross, a pope, a priest as divine? If you go back, did our prophets actually make this religion we are following or is it an institution made by his followers or the followers of his followers?

Have not we Paganised Islam or Islamised Paganism? Have not we done the same to everything? Christianied Paganism or Paganised Christianity? etc, etc.

**This is not to say "Being pagan is wrong" or "being monotheistic" is super duper. Addressing the conflict and it is a conflict.

 

[Deeje]

Have not we Paganised Islam or Islamised Paganism? Have not we done the same to everything? Christianied Paganism or Paganised Christianity? etc, etc.

When God's adversary rules the world, (1 John 5:19) everything is paganized. Its his stock in trade.
All worship that does not go to the true God, goes to his adversary by default....he doesn't care how you worship him as long as you don't worship the right God. He is a pretender.....he and all who follow him will come to nothing....or so the Bible says.

 

[firedragon]

When God's adversary rules the world, (1 John 5:19) everything is paganized. Its his stock in trade.
All worship that does not go to the true God, goes to his adversary by default....he doesn't care how you worship him as long as you don't worship the right God. He is a pretender.....he and all who follow him will come to nothing....or so the Bible says.

Hmm. That's actually quite interesting.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Defining paganism is problematic. Many definitions of it even have a Christian influence, to refer to outsiders of the church.

 

[danieldemol]

Did we make up the physical values and divine values attributed to the "black stone"? Why do we pray to dead people? Do we venerate the Kaaba more than its meant to be? What about tombs? How about those we believe are the vicegerents of the prophet, all of this while we yet believe the prophet was nothing divine but a mere human being? What is this about evil eye, doing magic to hurt others, and doing counter magic to protect ourselves? Why sing songs of praise to a human being who is dead and actually believe that he visits us when we sing? Have not we anthropomorphised God, worshiped a human being, chanted and ranted around buildings, places, dates and magic though we also claim God is actually beyond all of this? Have we not taken a physical symbol, statues, a cross, a pope, a priest as divine? If you go back, did our prophets actually make this religion we are following or is it an institution made by his followers or the followers of his followers?

Have not we Paganised Islam or Islamised Paganism? Have not we done the same to everything? Christianied Paganism or Paganised Christianity? etc, etc.

Something is not necessarily wrong because it is pagan.

Even though they are not usually willing to admit it Abrahamic religions borrowed from the pagan culture surrounding them right from the inception of the religions.

Take Islam’s reliance on the lunar calendar for example.

While I don’t believe in taking Prophets as gods you asked, “Why sing songs of praise to a human being who is dead and actually believe that he visits us when we sing” that is not because one believes he is a god, but simply because one believes he has an immortal spirit, and is thus not really dead just because he no longer makes use of the physical body.

 

[wizanda]

Have not we Paganised Islam or Islamised Paganism?

Calling idolatry Paganism is disrespectful to religions that are Pagan, and are not idolatrous.

The original Islam of Abraham wasn't as pure as people want to make out; Muhammadans want to have a cult like mentality, over following the prophets as perfect down near Hell.

If this world is called the Maya in Dharmic understandings as it is near Hell, where people are attached to their Self before Source, and so worship material things down here.

It is inevitable that people will create methods for forms of idolatry, in a world of materialistic desires; so though Muhammad warns not to follow the Traditions of the Forefathers...

Unless people are educated to understand this is all an illusion, inside a mathematical computer, where nothing is real other than Source; attachment to things always exists.

Where worshipping anything other than Source, which is 100% maths, is unworthy of worship.

My understanding of where Muhammad makes some valid points is Oneness of religion all being One, which Muhammadans do not follow; they follow all the ritualistic material stuff, which means little to the Source, in comparison to wisdom.

Everyone is seeking outwardly what they should be seeking within, and in that I agree Muhammad's ritualistic behaviour systems were just as bad as all the other religious traditions.

The internal working of the Quran, interlinking with Biblical prophecy, to give pointers of where key issues are in the Bible, is useful; yet I do believe Muhammad had to create a religion like Moses to please the people's previous whims, yet in doing slightly spoiling the purest of messages, which God gave in simplicity for mankind.

The 10 commandments are quantum physics, the forms of yoga, & chakras are advanced connection to the Source of reality; thus within the sentiments of your thread, of do external workings lead to pleasing Source' or they Pagan (idolatrous), it is expressed by advanced masters understandings:

The quickest method to worship Source is deep meditation (Salat - Connection - Yoga); not going to somewhere, to make a point of doing something materialistic.

The quickest method to Islam is understanding: (2:285) that everything comes from the Oneness of Source; so we accept all true messengers from the Source without distinction, where we listen to the message overall, and we obey the message given as One.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

Something is not necessarily wrong because it is pagan.

Even though they are not usually willing to admit it Abrahamic religions borrowed from the pagan culture surrounding them right from the inception of the religions.

Take Islam’s reliance on the lunar calendar for example.

While I don’t believe in taking Prophets as gods you asked, “Why sing songs of praise to a human being who is dead and actually believe that he visits us when we sing” that is not because one believes he is a god, but simply because one believes he has an immortal spirit, and is thus not really dead just because he no longer makes use of the physical body.

I didnt mean to say something is wrong because its pagan. I am addressing us (or you or anyone or/and everyone) who don't claim to be pagan.

And you responded to singing songs of praise etc but you missed the other part where i said "all of this while we yet believe the prophet was nothing divine but a mere human being".

Anyway, you missed the point brother. The belief in a human being having an immortal spirit etc itself is questioned whether its a paganisation of Islam or an islamisation of paganism.