Are We Those Evil "Neo-Liberals"? (Libertarian Only)

[Revoltingest]

Are We Those Evil "Neo-Liberals"?
Well, this fellow thinks so......
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
This article attacks us & our identity on several fronts.
A few are....

1) If there really are "left libertarians" who aren't fans of the free market &
capitalism, then this Brit eliminates them with the stroke of a pen....or, key.
I sympathize, but our left leaning friends fervently claim to exist.

2) The author simplisticly attributes failures in capitalism to lack of regulation, without
addressing areas where over-regulation actually caused the problem, eg, housing bubbles.

3) The author relies upon partisan demonization.
Examples.....
"To the admirers of Trump, for example, facts and arguments appear irrelevant."
What? This is certainly a reasonable claim for some or even a majority of them, but all?
Look at the flip side....does he not see that Hilalry's admirers endure the same fate?
They ignore her voting to start & continue our incredibly wrong wars, her lack of real
accomplishment, etc, etc.

And my favorite is his title....
Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems
Who knew we wield such omnipotent & omnipresent power?
I look at our economic malaise, & the burden imposed by these budget busting wars to police the world, & just wonder.....how do economic & personal liberty cause all this?
I'll tell ya....what passes for rational thought, & even earns awards is cause for dismay.

But I risk getting bogged down in election politics.
I say that "neoliberalism" is just the latest brickbat we endure from people who just don't like libertarianism.
We don't need a new epithet for Dems & Pubs to mischievously label us.

What say you, fellow libs?

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative, but I tend to be more flexible and pragmatic with economic issues, thus a left libertarian? As for Trump; not all trump supporters are libertarians, and not all libertarians are trump supporters. Personally, I loathe the guy.

Also, it's just a Brit. Their "insight" into what goes on here has a tendency to be very skewed, presumptuous, and limited. Also, they obviously don't run or vote in our elections, so their opinions of our politics are rather irrelevant.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative, but I tend to be more flexible and pragmatic with economic issues, thus a left libertarian?

Not necessarily.
"Left" libertarians appear to be those who want more governmental control over the economy, but social liberty.

As for Trump; not all trump supporters are libertarians, and not all libertarians are trump supporters. Personally, I loathe the guy.

I too dislike him.....not just much of his political & economic positions, but for his boorish behavior.
Still....he has his positive points, eg, a deliciously wicked sense of humor, & the ability to speak extemporaneously (something lacking in Hilda & Obama).
And his hair.

Also, it's just a Brit. Their "insight" into what goes on here has a tendency to be very skewed, presumptuous, and limited.

Even Americastanians suffer from such 'insight', as we see particularly in this election campaigning.
They're lapping up this article over in that other forum.

 

[Father Heathen]

Not necessarily.
"Left" libertarians appear to be those who want more governmental control over the economy, but social liberty.

Eh?

I too dislike him.....not just much of his political & economic positions, but for his boorish behavior.
Still....he has his positive points, eg, a deliciously wicked sense of humor, & the ability to speak extemporaneously (something lacking in Hilda & Obama).
And his hair.

I think the negatives far outweigh the positives for both of them. I'll be voting for Gary Johnson even though I know I'm "throwing my vote away".

Even Americastanians suffer from such 'insight', as we see particularly in this election campaigning.
They're lapping up this article over in that other forum.

They can't be too confident in it if they felt it necessary to shield it from critique and scrutiny.

 

[Laika]

Are We Those Evil "Neo-Liberals"?
Well, this fellow thinks so......
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
This article attacks us & our identity on several fronts.
A few are....

1) If there really are "left libertarians" who aren't fans of the free market &
capitalism, then this Brit eliminates them with the stroke of a pen....or, key.
I sympathize, but our left leaning friends fervently claim to exist.

2) The author simplisticly attributes failures in capitalism to lack of regulation, without
addressing areas where over-regulation actually caused the problem, eg, housing bubbles.

3) The author relies upon partisan demonization.
Examples.....
"To the admirers of Trump, for example, facts and arguments appear irrelevant."
What? This is certainly a reasonable claim for some or even a majority of them, but all?
Look at the flip side....does he not see that Hilalry's admirers endure the same fate?
They ignore her voting to start & continue our incredibly wrong wars, her lack of real
accomplishment, etc, etc.

And my favorite is his title....
Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems
Who knew we wield such omnipotent & omnipresent power?
I look at our economic malaise, & the burden imposed by these budget busting wars to police the world, & just wonder.....how do economic & personal liberty cause all this?
I'll tell ya....what passes for rational thought, & even earns awards is cause for dismay.

But I risk getting bogged down in election politics.
I say that "neoliberalism" is just the latest brickbat we endure from people who just don't like libertarianism.
We don't need a new epithet for Dems & Pubs to mischievously label us.

What say you, fellow libs?

Sunstone did a thread on this in the socialist only forums, which is I assume how you found it.

There is no simple response to the arguments it presents. A major issue is that neoliberalism is presented as non-ideological, self-evident or natural (or as mark fisher called it "Capitalist Realism").
Most libertarians would say that democratic socialism or left wing libertarian is an illusion and that any form of collectivism is necessarily coercive. Historically, there is a great deal of evidence to support this view but only to a point. Many works like Hayeks Road to Serfdom take an almost fatalistic approach of the descent of well intentioned efforts to reform capitalism or to build an alternative into totalitarianism based on assuming that there is a binary choice: the private individual who owns their property versus the state as a coercive instrument. The expansion of the state to include economic activity greatly increases the potential for coercion and abuse. It is however far from automatic.

The major underpinning is that only "free" individuals have the incentive to work hard. Within this binary conception of the state versus individual, that means only the private sector is free and can be efficient. That isn't wholly true given the role large government projects make in providing valuable social services or producing necessary infrastructure such as roads, sewers, etc or investment into higher education and scientific establishments such as NASA.

The problem with neoliberalism (in how it overlaps with right wing libertarianism) is it is too often very black and white and lacks nuance to appreciate the value of government intervention to protect Liberty, or do things markets are not very good at.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think the negatives far outweigh the positives for both of them. I'll be voting for Gary Johnson even though I know I'm "throwing my vote away".

I sympathize.
Johnson is the much better candidate.
I still reserve the right to ditch Trump for him as November nears.

They can't be too confident in it if they felt it necessary to shield it from critique and scrutiny.

True dat.
But then they might say the same of me for putting it here.
They might even show up....RF definitions allow one to be a both a socialist & a libertarian,
since a "left libertarian" looks indistinguishable from a modern liberal, who could easily
identify as a socialist.

 

[Father Heathen]

Remember that one political test that places you on a graph that pops up once or twice a year here?

This is where it places me:

 

[Revoltingest]

Sunstone did a thread on this in the socialist only forums, which is I assume how you found it.

Observant at times I am.

There is no simple response to the arguments it presents. A major issue is that neoliberalism is presented as non-ideological, self-evident or natural (or as mark fisher called it "Capitalist Realism").
Most libertarians would say that democratic socialism or left wing libertarian is an illusion and that any form of collectivism is necessarily coercive. Historically, there is a great deal of evidence to support this view but only to a point. Many works like Hayeks Road to Serfdom take an almost fatalistic approach of the descent of well intentioned efforts to reform capitalism or to build an alternative into totalitarianism based on assuming that there is a binary choice: the private individual who owns their property versus the state as a coercive instrument. The expansion of the state to include economic activity greatly increases the potential for coercion and abuse. It is however far from automatic.

The major underpinning is that only "free" individuals have the incentive to work hard. Within this binary conception of the state versus individual, that means only the private sector is free and can be efficient. That isn't wholly true given the role large government projects make in providing valuable social services or producing necessary infrastructure such as roads, sewers, etc or investment into higher education and scientific establishments such as NASA.

The problem with neoliberalism (in how it overlaps with right wing libertarianism) is it is too often very black and white and lacks nuance to appreciate the value of government intervention to protect Liberty, or do things markets are not very good at.

A thought....
Non-free individuals can also be given incentive to work hard (coercion, you know).

 

[Revoltingest]

Remember that one political test that places you on a graph that pops up once or twice a year here?

This is where it places me:

Aha!
I'm down in the extreme lower right purple quadrant.
It's <sniff> lonely down here <sniff> <sniff>.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's <sniff> lonely down here <sniff> <sniff>.

And apparently smells funny, with all of that sniffing.

 

[Revoltingest]

And apparently smells funny, with all of that sniffing.

Tears of loneliness.....<sigh>.....

 

[Jumi]

I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative, but I tend to be more flexible and pragmatic with economic issues, thus a left libertarian? As for Trump; not all trump supporters are libertarians, and not all libertarians are trump supporters. Personally, I loathe the guy.

I agree, not a fan of Trump at all. From what I've seen of him, he's a mixed bag.

Also, it's just a Brit. Their "insight" into what goes on here has a tendency to be very skewed, presumptuous, and limited.

As a European I agree. Most people here have no idea about American politics and the media doesn't paint a pretty or good picture about it, ignoring the history, demographics and other complexities.

 

[Revoltingest]

As a European I agree. Most people here have no idea about American politics and the media doesn't paint a pretty or good picture about it, ignoring the history, demographics and other complexities.

This reminds me of something.....
My daughter has spent much time in Finland.
They sell something in grocery stores there called "American Sauce".
It's like nothing she's ever seen here in Americastan.
Sorta like "french fries", eh.

 

[Jumi]

This reminds me of something.....
My daughter has spent much time in Finland.
They sell something in grocery stores there called "American Sauce".
It's like nothing she's ever seen here in Americastan.
Sorta like "french fries", eh.

Haha, yep. I googled a bit and I think it comes from Sweden, where they have all sorts of flavors of it like "French hot dog". Here's what it looks like if you're curious:

Contents:
Veg. oil (rapeseed), cucumber, egg yolk, water, vinegar, tomato paste, sugar, mustard, spices (including onions, peppers, garlic), salt (0.9%), stabilizers (E415, E509), mod.cornstarch, preservatives (E202), colorant (E141, riboflavin).

 

[Revoltingest]

Haha, yep. I googled a bit and I think it comes from Sweden, where they have all sorts of flavors of it like "French hot dog". Here's what it looks like if you're curious:

Contents:
Veg. oil (rapeseed), cucumber, egg yolk, water, vinegar, tomato paste, sugar, mustard, spices (including onions, peppers, garlic), salt (0.9%), stabilizers (E415, E509), mod.cornstarch, preservatives (E202), colorant (E141, riboflavin).

Ew.