Are We in Late Stage Capitalism?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Fascism enabled by the ascendency of nativism, bigotry, and multifaceted ignorance as the thin veneer of liberal democracy decays.

 

[Left Coast]

Capitalism forces us all to compete with each other for our survival, like dumb animals. Yet humanity survives and thrives through mutual cooperation for collective benefit. So capitalism is antithetical to humanity.

That's rather reductive and dogmatic, is it not? Humanity also thrives through healthy competition that drives innovation and pushes us to be better versions of ourselves. There's a balance to be struck between cooperation and competition, IMO.

 

[Left Coast]

No. I think you are confusing capital investment with capitalism. People offering their excess capital to commercial enterprise for a reasonable profit is not the same thing as giving the capital investor total control over the business enterprise they've invested in. Capitalism does the latter, and effectively perverts the purpose of all business enterprise. Under the capitalist system, we don't build houses for people to live in, we build them to garner a maximum profit on the capital invested in the enterprise. That profit goal of the capital investor perverts the fundamental purpose of business enterprise in the service of greed and competition, as opposed to the service of mutual benefit (fair trade) and cooperation. This fundamental perversion of purpose poisons everything it touches, and decreases the overall quality of life for any society foolish enough to engage in it.

And we are those fools.

You seem to have an idea in your head that capitalism is only capitalism if it exists in its most cynical, extreme libertarian version. That is not the case.

Capitalism - Wikipedia

Mixed economy - Wikipedia

 

[Left Coast]

It's simple. We have to take the total control of business enterprise away from the capital investor, and give an equal share of it to everyone else involved in the enterprise (the workers, the consumers, and the community within which it operates).

I see, so everyone would equally co-own every business in their community?

You understand how immensely not simple that would be in practice, yes?

 

[PureX]

That's rather reductive and dogmatic, is it not? Humanity also thrives through healthy competition that drives innovation and pushes us to be better versions of ourselves. There's a balance to be struck between cooperation and competition, IMO.

Sure, that's the BS that we've all been taught. But in fact, all competition does is waste energy and resources on multiple individual efforts that in no way ensure superior results. In fact, they very often lead to wasteful an illogical attempts at raising the inferior result above all others.

The only competition that pushes us to be better versions of ourselves occurs when we're competing with ourselves. The simple fact is tha apart from that, competition is mostly just an ago-driven waste of time, energy, and resoursces.

 

[Revoltingest]

Capitalism forces us all to compete with each other for our survival, like dumb animals. Yet humanity survives and thrives through mutual cooperation for collective benefit. So capitalism is antithetical to humanity.

Capitalism requires massive cooperation.
That's how it works....investors, entrepreneurs, managers,
workers, customers, lenders...all interacting by mutual
agreement. It sounds more like you want something
that no one else will agree too...free stuff perhaps?

 

[Left Coast]

Sure, that's the BS that we've all been taught. But in fact, all competition does is waste energy and resources on multiple individual efforts that in no way ensure superior results. In fact, they very often lead to wasteful an illogical attempts at raising the inferior result above all others.

That's also true of attempts at cooperation, though. No human effort is guaranteed success.

The only competition that pushes us to be better versions of ourselves occurs when we're competing with ourselves. The simple fact is tha apart from that, competition is mostly just an ago-driven waste of time, energy, and resoursces.

I'm not sure any of what your saying is "simple fact." You seem extremely confident it is, though.

 

[PureX]

I see, so everyone would equally co-own every business in their community?

You understand how immensely not simple that would be in practice, yes?

"Ownership is not what matters so much as control. Everyone involved in and effected by a business enterprise needs to have some control of how that enterprise is being conducted, to protect themselves from abuse and exploitation. Capitalism is completely antithetical to that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Fascism enabled by the ascendency of nativism, bigotry, and multifaceted ignorance as the thin veneer of liberal democracy decays.

Do tiny clouds follow you around,
& rain on you all day?

 

[PureX]

Capitalism requires massive cooperation.
That's how it works....investors, entrepreneurs, managers,
workers, customers, lenders...all interacting by mutual
agreement. It sounds more like you want something
that no one else will agree too...free stuff perhaps?

... all out to exploit each other for their own maximum personal gain. That's not mutual cooperation. That's mutual exploitation. But that's the big lie of the capitalists: that exploitation is just "good business" , because greed is a virtue.

 

[Revoltingest]

... all out to exploit each other for their own maximum personal gain. That's not mutual cooperation. That's mutual exploitation. But that's the big lie of the capitalists: that exploitation is just "good business" , because greed is a virtue.

You must live in a different world.
Mine is one of agreement & acting on that.
Except where government is involved.

Apocryphal story....
Man in eastern Europe is interviewed some time
after the fall of socialism.
Interviewer: What's it like to be exploited by capitalists?
Man: Better than being exploited by socialists.

 

[Left Coast]

"Ownership is not what matters so much as control. Everyone involved in and effected by a business enterprise needs to have some control of how that enterprise is being conducted, to protect themselves from abuse and exploitation. Capitalism is completely antithetical to that.

I disagree, businesses are routinely influenced by both their employees and also their customers. Demand drives businesses to change and adapt to what consumers want. Obviously, yes, we need guidelines in place to prevent exploitation of workers and so on.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It is not in the interest of capitalism to let its competitors survive.
It tolerates employees and customers as they are the source of its wealth.
The purpose of Globalism is to create even greater world wide monopolies.
Where most of the income can be kept away from the taxation authorities of individual income generating countries, by creating invisible networks of income streams controlled in tax havens.

Small time Capitalist enterprises and individuals pay the majority of national taxation.
Un-controlled Capitalism is neither efficient nor good for the future of society.
as it divorces the link between the needs and support of public Infrastructure and the wealth needed to establish and maintain it.

The Drain of middle class employees on a business, can be largely reduced by creating flatter management structures. and outsourcing the majority of production, and distribution and sales to low income sources.
Covid has shown, very clearly, that the costs of office space and supporting facilities and transport can be reduced significantly by maximising Home working and online sales, as the overheads are largely bourn by the employee/ homeowner.

The businesses involved are not concerned about the social or individual consequences of any of these things.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is not in the interest of capitalism to let its competitors survive.

That depends upon the regulatory environment.
Here in Ameristan, one risks being broken up if
it dominates a market.

Un-controlled Capitalism is neither efficient nor good for the future of society.

This is true of all economic systems. We need government
to protect civil liberties, the rule of law, & apply useful regulation.
Socialism, communism, feudal...all are bad without proper controls.

The businesses involved are not concerned about the social or individual consequences of any of these things.

No economic system is defined by concern for social things.
That is for government & culture to ensure pursuit of those goals.
But this doesn't mean that businesses, collectives, or other
economic players cannot pursue them. They're managed by
people who are part of the culture. My businesses fuel much
charitable work.

 

[PureX]

That's also true of attempts at cooperation, though. No human effort is guaranteed success.

But CLEARLY, working together to achieve a goal, and sharing our progress is far more effective than working separately, and hiding our progress from each other.

I'm not sure any of what your saying is "simple fact." You seem extremely confident it is, though.

I am not bamboozled by the BS that our capitalist culture has been spewing about capitalism for the last century. Once this is out of the way, simple logic clarifies things a lot. BUT, we need to understand the terms we're using, and differentiate between capitalism, capital investment, free markets, free trade, socialism, and so one. Because the lies and confusion are intense, and pervasive.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not bamboozled by the BS that our capitalist culture has been spewing....

And we're not bamboozled by yours either.

 

[PureX]

I disagree, businesses are routinely influenced by both their employees and also their customers. Demand drives businesses to change and adapt to what consumers want. Obviously, yes, we need guidelines in place to prevent exploitation of workers and so on.

No one ever went into business to 'adapt to the desires of the market". No owner/investor ever gave up an ounce of oversight/control willingly to anyone else, ever. The only influence anyone has over them is by interfering with their profit margins. And they work hard and tirelessly at making sure that can't happen.

 

[PureX]

And we're not bamboozled by yours either.

Your bias is impervious, I know. You said so in an earlier post.

 

[Left Coast]

But CLEARLY, working together to achieve a goal, and sharing our progress is far more effective than working separately, and hiding our progress from each other.

I don't think this accurately describes what happens in capitalist economies at all. Private businesses cooperate and share information and collaboratively benefit all the time. No business is an island unto themselves.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your bias is impervious, I know. You said so in an earlier post.

Oh, are you claiming to have no bias?
But I have one great thing going for my
defense of capitalism....
You have no real world alternative other
than disastrous attempts at socialism.