Are Vedas in chronological order?

[paarsurrey]

I don't think it is in chronological order. And there were many wars, duh human history. You don't seriously believe that with all the empires and the conquering goings on in ancient India that all the populace were nothing more than flower power hippies do you?

It is told here by some friends that Vedic people came in the Indian-sub-Continent from somewhere else. How many battles/wars did the have with the locals here in the Indian-sub-Continent and how many they have before coming here or elsewhere they came from. May be they came from Australia or Africa or in from the Ex-Russian states or from the Arctic, as some friend here want us have to believe, from the internal clues in the Veda itself, not from the outside to start with . Please
Regards

When replying to my above post, if you happen to quote from Veda a chapter/verse, please do mention if it belongs to pre-migaration of the Vedic people or to the post-migration of the Vedic people to the Indian-sub-Continent.

Regards

 

[SomeRandom]

When replying to my above post, if you happen to quote from Veda a chapter/verse, please do mention if it belongs to pre-migaration of the Vedic people or to the post-migration of the Vedic people to the Indian-sub-Continent.

Regards

Why? I'm not quoting anything.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

"paarsurrey, post: 4878306, member: 37462"

Namaste,

I know this was not for me, but i do have a question

please do mention if it belongs to pre-migaration of the Vedic people or to the post-migration of the Vedic people to the Indian-sub-Continent.

Why is this migration myth required to understand Vedic principals? it seems you have bought into the Aryan Myth propagated by some people.

 

[paarsurrey]

Namaste,
I know this was not for me, but i do have a question
Why is this migration myth required to understand Vedic principals? it seems you have bought into the Aryan Myth propagated by some people.

If one does not believe in any invasion/migration theory, it is perfectly alright, but then one should tell that it is was revealed within the Indian-sub-Continent so that while making a discussion we are on one page. One who believes in the invasion theory, he should distinctively mention it as friend @Aupmanyav , he thinks that parts of Veda belongs to Arctic and the ex-soviets states, he should correct me if I have understood him wrongly. Please
In both situations the inner evidence from the Veda will decide as to what actually happened and where. Please
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

One who believes in the invasion theory, he should distinctively mention it as friend @Aupmanyav , he thinks that parts of Veda belongs to Arctic and the ex-soviets states, he should correct me if I have understood him wrongly.

There is one particular thing which you never forget to mention despite my repeated attempts and there is one thing which you never remember to mention. I think that relates to your religious belief. Since you are a Muslim, you understand invasion and war only and not migration and peace.

But remember, migrations do happen, as it is happening now in Europe. People from North Africa and Middle-East are migrating to Europe because things are difficult in their own countries. That is what happened with Aryans also. They migrated to India because it was a land of plenty and peaceful. Some people found it hot and returned to Central Asia, for example, the family/tribe of Zoroaster. Other than that, you have understood me correctly.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

If one does not believe in any invasion/migration theory, it is perfectly alright, but then one should tell that it is was revealed within the Indian-sub-Continent so that while making a discussion we are on one page. One who believes in the invasion theory, he should distinctively mention it as friend @Aupmanyav , he thinks that parts of Veda belongs to Arctic and the ex-soviets states, he should correct me if I have understood him wrongly. Please
In both situations the inner evidence from the Veda will decide as to what actually happened and where. Please
Regards

Namaste,

It is not important for a Hindu to delve into the age, authorship, location, language, historiography of the Veda. The Veda are A-historical traditionally, they are not Purana or Ithihas but Veda, and this name is for a reason.

getting lost in trying to establish the History or Authorship ect of Veda Mantras is mostly a western obsession started off some 200 years ago during colonial rule in order to either convert or divide and rule, as they do not have Shruddha in the Vedic teachings nor do they consider it as a guide or sacred text that has any meaning in life for them right now. Their en-devour is purely self centered , they assume and have historically assumed authority over Vedic translations and interpretations and many Indians and Hindus have but parroted their assumptions and conclusions without question.

This myth of invasion which once refuted morphed into migration is now being evolved into out-of-India theory, all based on unsubstantiated and somewhat biased interpretation of the word Arya, will one day i pray be gone forever from our imaginations.

Dhanyavad

 

[paarsurrey]

Namaste,
It is not important for a Hindu to delve into the age, authorship, location, language, historiography of the Veda. The Veda are A-historical traditionally, they are not Purana or Ithihas but Veda, and this name is for a reason.
getting lost in trying to establish the History or Authorship ect of Veda Mantras is mostly a western obsession started off some 200 years ago during colonial rule in order to either convert or divide and rule, as they do not have Shruddha in the Vedic teachings nor do they consider it as a guide or sacred text that has any meaning in life for them right now. Their en-devour is purely self centered , they assume and have historically assumed authority over Vedic translations and interpretations and many Indians and Hindus have but parroted their assumptions and conclusions without question.
This myth of invasion which once refuted morphed into migration is now being evolved into out-of-India theory, all based on unsubstantiated and somewhat biased interpretation of the word Arya, will one day i pray be gone forever from our imaginations.
Dhanyavad

Then, what is your interpretation of the word "Arya"?Kindly express fully. Please
Regards

 

[sayak83]

I have read Yajurveda and now I am reading Rigveda.

I find no mention of Ahimsa in Veda/Yajurveda.

War, warriors, battles, foes, soldiers and arms and such words are mentioned in it and so often and frequently. Not a chapter goes by but we find several verses of war mentioned in the Yajurveda.

It is not mentioned in the internal context of the verses as to when to make peace and when to make war. It, therefore, doesn’t seem true that only the "battle of ten kings" was fought in the Indian-sub-Continent, as a friend here have us to believe.

If this would have been the case then only in the relevant chapter it has been mentioned, but war is mentioned all along in Yajurveda and since I started reading Rigveda, I find war fought in the very earlier chapters. If Veda is in chronological order then it entails that too many battles were fought and all in the region of the Indian-sub-Continent against the local and native people, unless it is proved otherwise. Please

Regards

There is NO historical or archalological evidence whatsoever of any battle between Vedic and non-Vedic people in India. It is extremely tenuous to parse history out of religious texts as countless attempts over the last 200 years has shown.

 

[paarsurrey]

There is NO historical or archalological evidence whatsoever of any battle between Vedic and non-Vedic people in India. It is extremely tenuous to parse history out of religious texts as countless attempts over the last 200 years has shown.

It is a pre-Historic period, so History is almost silent on it.
One may like to read from the following:
http://mailstar.net/rig-veda.html
Please
Regards

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is a pre-Historic period, so History is almost silent on it.
One may like to read from the following: http://mailstar.net/rig-veda.html

No. History is not silent on this. The fact that none of the Aryan scriptures mention a war between them and the indigenous people shows that there were no such conflicts. Mailstar.net is not a scholarly site. It is an advertisement site. Show us something from Wikipedia or American and British university sites.

 

[sayak83]

It is a pre-Historic period, so History is almost silent on it.
One may like to read from the following:
http://mailstar.net/rig-veda.html
Please
Regards

I am fully aware of these speculations. They are merely that speculations. There is absolutely nothing in Indus Valley archaeology that shows destructions caused by violent wars (say unlike the case of Near Eastern sites in the Late Bronze age-Iron age transition when the Sea Peoples invaded) . Post Harappan sites in the Indo Gangetic basin has lots of pottery and other material ware related to early iron age, but again no sign of any wars or war-related violence or any large hordes of weapons (prominently present in Mycenaean Greek or Celtic townships of the same age).

Here is a detailed study showing how a weakening monsoon and aridity in the Indus valley increased economic strain, presence of diseases and social inequality, increased crime and violence and eventually led to the collapse of Indus cities at around 1900 BCE
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0084814

In the third millennium B.C., the Indus Civilization flourished in northwest India and Pakistan. The late mature phase (2200-1900 B.C.) was characterized by long-distance exchange networks, planned urban settlements, sanitation facilities, standardized weights and measures, and a sphere of influence over 1,000,000 square kilometers of territory. Recent paleoclimate reconstructions from the Beas River Valley demonstrate hydro-climatic stress due to a weakened monsoon system may have impacted urban centers like Harappa by the end of the third millennium B.C. the impact of environmental change was compounded by concurrent disruptions to the regional interaction sphere. Climate, economic, and social changes contributed to the disintegration of this civilization after 1900 B.C. We assess evidence for paleopathology to infer the biological consequences of climate change and socio-economic disruption in the post-urban period at Harappa, one of the largest urban centers in the Indus Civilization. Bioarchaeological evidence demonstrates the prevalence of infection and infectious disease increased through time. Furthermore, the risk for infection and disease was uneven among burial communities. Corresponding mortuary differences suggest that socially and economically marginalized communities were most vulnerable in the context of climate uncertainty at Harappa. Combined with prior evidence for increasing levels of interpersonal violence, our data support a growing pathology of power at Harappa after 2000 B.C. Observations of the intersection between climate change and social processes in proto-historic cities offer valuable lessons about vulnerability, insecurity, and the long-term consequences of short-term strategies for coping with climate change.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/200-year-drought-doomed-indus-valley-civilization/

The decline of Bronze-Age civilizations in Egypt, Greece and Mesopotamia has been attributed to a long-term drought that began around 2000 BC. Now paleoclimatologists propose that a similar fate was followed by the enigmatic Indus Valley Civilization, at about the same time. Based on isotope data from the sediment of an ancient lake, the researchers suggest that the monsoon cycle, which is vital to the livelihood of all of South Asia, essentially stopped there for as long as two centuries.

There is excellent evidence now that because of the climatic changes, the settlements of the Harappan civilization become de-urbanized and migrate away from the arid central regions of the Indus Valley and move into Punjab and then Upper Gangetic plains. This is coincident with the development of the Iron age from 1800 BCE onwards and the civilization associated with iron-using painted grey ware pottery in Punjab and the Upper Gangetic basin. While large scale urbanization had collapsed, there is little evidence of any cultural or ethnic discontinuity as the settlements essentially look like what Indus Valley villages looked like in the urbanization period, with the important difference that iron working has been discovered and begins to be used. Indeed quite large settlements that are easily identifiable as Harappan continue to be there at least upto 1300 BCE throughout the region and the technological, cultural and agricultural practices show continuity right upto into the historical period if classical India.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v3922/pdfs/kenoyer.pdf

None of this disputes the arrival of significant number of Indo-European speaking "Vedic" people into North India from about 2000 BCE, probably as the more arid Central Asian climate now extended into Sind and Punjab regions, favoring pastoral climates ideal for their lifestyle as keepers of cows and horses. Their presence is amply demonstrated through genetic evidence in Indian population. Modern Indian people are a mixture of four different ancestral populations. Ancestral North Indian(ANI) groups associated with the Indo-Europeans, Ancestral South Indian Group (ASI) associated with the Dravidians, Ancestral Afro-Asiatic (AAA) associated with indigenous tribal people and the Ancestral Tibeto-Burmese group (ATB) present in the hill countries of the Himalayas. Genetic evidence shows that inter-mixing between these groups continued apace from around 1800 BCE to 400 CE and then stopped in the more upper caste groups in the late Gupta period with the introduction of caste endogamy. Endogamy became a prevalent practice in lower castes and in the tribal groups much later.
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/6/1594.full.pdf

We estimated that all upper-caste populations, except MPB from Northeast India, started to practice endogamy about 70 generations ago (Table 3). The length distributions of the AAA blocks and the ASI blocks within any one of these populations (GBR, WBR, IYR) were very similar (SI Appendix, section 5). The most parsimonious explanation of this is that the practice of gene flow between ancestries in India came to an abrupt end about 1,575 y ago (assuming 22.5 y to a generation). This time estimate belongs to the latter half of the period when the Gupta emperors ruled large tracts of India (Gupta Empire, 319–550 CE).

We have provided evidence that gene flow ended abruptly with the defining imposition of some social values and norms. The reign of the ardent Hindu Gupta rulers, known as the age of Vedic Brahminism, was marked by strictures laid down in Dharmasastra—the ancient compendium of moral laws and principles for religious duty and righteous conduct to be followed by a Hindu—and enforced through the powerful state machinery of a developing political economy (15). These strictures and enforcements resulted in a shift to endogamy. The evidence of more recent admixture among the Maratha (MRT) is in agreement with the known history of the post-Gupta Chalukya (543–753 CE) and the Rashtrakuta empires (753–982 CE) of western India, which established a clan of warriors (Kshatriyas) drawn from the local peasantry (15). In eastern and northeastern India, populations such as the West Bengal Brahmins (WBR) and the TB populations continued to admix until the emergence of the Buddhist Pala dynasty during the 8th to 12th centuries CE. The asymmetry of admixture, with ANI populations providing genomic inputs to tribal populations (AA, Dravidian tribe, and TB) but not vice versa, is consistent with elite dominance and patriarchy. Males from dominant populations, possibly upper castes, with high ANI component, mated outside of their caste, but their offspring were not allowed to be inducted into the caste. This phenomenon has been previously observed as asymmetry in homogeneity of mtDNA and heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal haplotypes in tribal populations of India (6) as well as the African Americans in United States (34).

In short, after the collapse of the Indus cities, the civilization and its culture and practices continued to exist throughout the rural villages of North and North-West India. Indo-European speaking people migrated into North India from 2000 BCE onwards bringing their religion and language and mixed with the post-Harappan and tribal people to a greater or a lesser degree. There may have been some wars but nothing out of the ordinary or anything that left a mark in the archaeology as it did in the Middle Eastern settlements. Both the culture and the civilization that developed in India after 600 BCE was therefore a mixed civilization with a mixed people with elements of both Harappan and Indo-European heritage and practice. While the early varna system certainly gave some precedence to Brahmins and Kshatriyas, the system was fluid with lots of intermixing. Only with the emergence of rigid caste-Brahminism in the north during the late Gupta empire in 400 CE which later spread into the South and the East by the 10th century did the exclusivist practices of the modern caste system became the norm in Indian society.

 

[Jainarayan]

Here is a detailed study showing how a weakening monsoon and aridity in the Indus valley increased economic strain, presence of diseases and social inequality, increased crime and violence and eventually led to the collapse of Indus cities at around 1900 BCE

I think the theory of climate change for the decline of the Indus Valley Civilization is gaining more and more acceptance. I think the unburied dead bodies can easily be explained by residents fleeing the area quickly, and/or not having the strength (starvation and famine?) or time to prepare funerals, before they themselves died. Invading and marauding "Ancient Aryāliens" (clever little bit of sandhi there )? Not likely imo.

 

[paarsurrey]

I think the theory of climate change for the decline of the Indus Valley Civilization is gaining more and more acceptance. I think the unburied dead bodies can easily be explained by residents fleeing the area quickly, and/or not having the strength (starvation and famine?) or time to prepare funerals, before they themselves died. Invading and marauding "Ancient Aryāliens" (clever little bit of sandhi there )? Not likely imo.

Does Veda support it? Please
Regards

 

[sayak83]

Does Veda support it? Please
Regards

Vedas say nothing at all about Indus Valley, being not created by the people who lived in the Harappan civilization.

 

[Jainarayan]

Does Veda support it? Please
Regards

Why would they? The Vedas are not a chronicle of history, nor an archaeological, geographical or anthropological treatise. I think you really do not understand what the Vedas are. I can't wait for the post asking about recipes in the Yajur Veda.

 

[sayak83]

Thanks for the information.
My endeavor is that the scripture of Veda is given a concise/compressed form, post #586,so that the masses in India and elsewhere could read it and benefit from it. This can only be done if the superfluous and redundant material from Veda that reflects of only the perverted mind-working of the priestly class is compressed while the essential part for the ethical, moral and spiritual development of humanity is retained.
The information provided by one, however, is not related to Veda and the people mentioned in it. Is it? Please

Regards

I care very little for your project.
You asked a question about whether the Vedic stanzas are evidence of large scale fights between Vedic people and non-Vedic people in India and I said its not and showed you why not.

 

[paarsurrey]

I care very little for your project.
You asked a question about whether the Vedic stanzas are evidence of large scale fights between Vedic people and non-Vedic people in India and I said its not and showed you why not.

Veda is a long and voluminous scripture and one of the main topics of Veda is war and battles. War and battles have two rival parties. They were continuously fighting, not a chapter goes by that doesn't mention of war and battles and the like words. Who were the people they fought with? There is always another side of the coin. Please
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Are Vedas in chronological order?

If not what system it has in it. Please
Regards

 

[sayak83]

Are Vedas in chronological order?

If not what system it has in it. Please
Regards

Linguists think so. But evidence for or against is tenuous.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My endeavor is that the scripture of Veda is given a concise/compressed form, post #590 ,so that the masses in India and elsewhere could read it and benefit from it. This can only be done if the superfluous and redundant material from Veda that reflects of only the perverted mind-working of the priestly class is compressed while the essential part for the ethical, moral and spiritual development of humanity is retained. The information provided by one, however, is not related to Veda and the people mentioned in it. Is it?

Sorry, Parsurrey. I had to report this post. I hope your books do not have such material.