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Featured Are Vedas in chronological order?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Sep 5, 2016.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I have read Yajurveda and now I am reading Rigveda.

    I find no mention of Ahimsa in Veda/Yajurveda.

    War, warriors, battles, foes, soldiers and arms and such words are mentioned in it and so often and frequently. Not a chapter goes by but we find several verses of war mentioned in the Yajurveda.

    It is not mentioned in the internal context of the verses as to when to make peace and when to make war. It, therefore, doesn’t seem true that only the "battle of ten kings" was fought in the Indian-sub-Continent, as a friend here have us to believe.

    If this would have been the case then only in the relevant chapter it has been mentioned, but war is mentioned all along in Yajurveda and since I started reading Rigveda, I find war fought in the very earlier chapters. If Veda is in chronological order then it entails that too many battles were fought and all in the region of the Indian-sub-Continent against the local and native people, unless it is proved otherwise. Please

    Regards


     
  2. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess
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    Can you show me where it encourages the making of war?

    There is plenty of war among the gods and plenty of war in Indian history.
     
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  3. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess
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  4. von bek

    von bek Well-Known Member

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    Are you asking if the Vedas are arranged in the order that rishis heard the verses? Or, are you asking if there is an underlying narrative that is unfolding chronologically?
     
  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Rigveda
    • "Without congestion, amidst men, She who has many heights, stretches, and level grounds, who bears herbs of manifold potency, may that Earth spread out and be rich for us. Let all the people milk Her with amity."[20]
    • "The peace in the sky, the peace in the mid-air, the peace on earth, the peace in waters, the peace in plants, the peace in forest trees, the peace in all Gods, the peace in Brahman, the peace in all things, the peace in peace, may that peace come to me."[21]
      • "Let your aims be common, and your hearts be of one accord, and all of you be of one mind, so you may live well together."[22]

        Yajurveda
        "May all beings look at me with a friendly eye. May I do likewise, and may we all look on each other with the eyes of a friend."[27]
        • "The injury that we have caused to heaven and earth, mother or father, from that sin may the domestic fire ceremony pull us out."
        • "Do not injure the beings living on the earth, in the air and in the water."
        • "Everyone should make offerings to all creatures; thereby one achieves the propitiation of all creatures. Every day one should make gifts, even if it be only with a cup of water: thus one achieves the propitiation of human beings."[28]
        • In the Taittiriya Samhita, [29], where it refers to non-injury to the sacrificer himself. It occurs several times in the Shatapatha Brahmana in the sense of "non-injury" without a moral connotation.
        • In the Kapisthala Katha Samhita [30], there is a reference to non-violence to animals in a moral sense.
        http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Ahimsa_in_Scriptures#Rigveda
        I will check the references. Thanks and regards
     
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I am trying to understand the system of arrangement of Veda.
    Is it arranged in the order that rishis heard the verses or subject-Wise or some other system? Please
    Regards
     
  7. von bek

    von bek Well-Known Member

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    I understand, now. My question to you is the same question you are asking others. All I can offer is that the Rig Veda is considered the oldest by scholars.
     
  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I was checking the first reference [20] which is Rigveda Chapter XII.1, in Griffith translation which I am reading it is as follows:

    [01-012] HYMN XII. Agni.
    I WE choose Agni the messenger, the herald, master of all wealth,
    Well skilled in this our sacrifice.
    http://www.sanskritweb.net/rigveda/griffith.pdf
    Please
    Regards
     
  9. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    From Griffith translation of Veda, link provided at the end, I find only following Verses that mention peace, in the entire Rigveda:
    [01-013] HYMN XIII. Agni

    9 Ila, Sarasvati, Mahi, three Goddesses who bring delight,
    Be seated, peaceful, on the grass.

    [01-067] HYMN LXVII. Agni.
    1. VICTORIOUS in the wood, Friend among men, ever he claims obedience as a King.
    Gracious like peace, blessing like mental power, Priest was he, offering-bearer, full of thought.

    [04-050] HYMN L. Brhaspati.
    7 Surely that King by power and might heroic hath made him lord of all his foes' posses-ions,
    Who cherishes Brhaspati well-tended, adorns and worships him as foremost sharer.
    8 In his own house he dwells in peace and comfort: to him for ever holy food flows richly.
    To him the people with free will pay homage-the King with whom the Brahman hatb precedence.

    [05-037] HYMN XXXVII. Indra.
    5 May he support in peace and win in battle: he masters both the hosts that meet together.
    Dear shall he be to Surya, dear to Agni, who with pressed Soma offers gifts to India.

    [05-072] HYMN LXXIL Mitra-Varuna.

    1 To Varuna and Mitra we offerwith songs, as Atri did. Sit on the sacred grass to drink the Soma
    juice.
    2 By Ordinance and Law ye dwell in peace secure, bestirring men.
    Sit on the sacred grass to drink the Soma juice.

    [06-003] HYMN III. Agni.
    1. TRUE, guardian of the Law, thy faithful servant wins ample light and dwells in peace, O Agni,
    Whom thou, as Varuna in accord with Mitra, guardest, O God, by banishing his trouble.
    4 Fierce is his gait and vast his wondrous body: he champeth like a horse with bit and bridle,
    And, darting forth his tongue, as 'twere a hatchet, burning the woods, smelteth them like a smelter.
    5 Archer-like, fain toshoot, he sets his arrow, and whets his splendour like the edge of iron:
    The messenger of night with brilliant pathway, like a tree-roosting bird of rapid pinion.

    [06-050] HYMN L. Visvedevas.

    7 Give full protection, Friends of man, ye Waters, in peace and trouble, to our sons and grandsons.
    For ye are our most motherly physicians, parents of all that standeth, all that moveth.

    [07-032] HYMN XXXII. Indra
    2 For here, like flies on honey, these who pray to thee sit by the juice that they have poured.
    Wealth-craving singers have on Indra set their hope, as men set foot upon a car.
    3 Longing for wealth I call on him, the Thunderer with the strong right hand,
    As a son calleth on his sire.
    4 These Soma juices, mixed with curd, have been expressed for Indra here.
    Come with thy Bay Steeds, Thunder-wielder, to our home, to drink them till they make thee glad.
    5 May he whose ear is open hear us. He is asked for wealth: will he despise our prayer?
    Him who bestows at once a hundred thousand gifts none shall restrain when he would give.
    6 The hero never checked by men hath gained his strength through Indra, he
    Who presses out and pours his deep libations forth, O Vrtra-slayer, unto thee.
    7 When thou dost drive the fighting men together be, thou Mighty One, the mighty's shield.
    May we divide the wealth of him whom thou hast slain: bring us, Unreachable, his goods.
    8 For Indra, Soma-drinker, armed with thunder, press the Soma juice.
    Make ready your dressed meats: cause him to favour us. The Giver blesses him who gives.
    9 Grudge not, ye Soma pourers; stir you, pay the rites, for wealth, to the great Conqueror.
    Only the active conquers dwells in peace, and thrives: not for the niggard are the Gods.

    [07-069] HYMN LXIX. Asvins.
    5 O Chariot-borne, this car of yours invested with rays of light comes harnessed to our dwelling.
    Herewith, O Asvins, while the dawn is breaking, to this our sacrifice bring peace and blessing.

    [07-082] HYMN LXXXIT. Indra-Varuna

    4 In battels and in frays we ministering priests, kneeling upon our knees for furtherance of our weal,
    Invoke you, only you, the Lords of twofold wealth, you prompt to hear, we bards, O Indra-Varuna.
    5 O Indra-Varuna, as ye created all these creatures of the world by your surpassing might,
    In peace and quiet Mitra waits on Varuna, the Other, awful, with the Maruis seeks renown.
    6 That Varuna's high worth may shine preeminent, these Twain have measured each his proper
    power and might.
    The One subdueth the destructive enemy; the Other with a few furthereth many a man.

    [08-001] HYMN I. Indra.

    2 Even him, eternal, like a bull who rushes down, men's Conqueror, bounteous like a cow;
    Him who is cause of both, of enmity and peace, to both sides most munificent.

    [08-073] HYMN LXXIII. Agni.

    8 Hirn Wise and Strong they glorify, the foremost Champion in the fray,
    And mighty in his dwelling-place.
    9 Agni, he dwells in rest and peace who smites and no one smites again:
    With hero sons he prospers well

    [10-027] HYMN XXVII. Indra.

    3 I know not him who sayeth and declareth that he hath slain the godless in the battle.
    Soon as they see the furious combat raging, men speak forth praises of my vigorous horses.
    4 While yet my deeds of might were unrecorded, all passed for Maghavans though I existed.
    The potent one who dwelt in peace I conquered, grasped by the foot and slew him on the mountain.
    5 None hinder me in mine heroic exploits, no, not the mountains when I will and purpose.
    Even the deaf will tremble at my roaring, and every day will dust be agitated.
    6 To see the Indraless oblation-drinkers, mean offerers, o'ertaken by destruction!
    Then shall the fellies of my car pass over those who have blamed my joyous Friend and scorned him.

    [10-035] HYMN XXXV. Visvedevas.

    1. THESE fires associate with Indra are awake, bringing their light when first the Dawn begins to shine.
    May Heaven and Earth, great Pair, observe our holy work. We claim for us this day the favour of the Gods.
    2 Yea, for ourselves we claim the grace of Heaven and Earth, of Saryanavan, of the Hills and Mother Streams.
    For innocence we pray to Surya and to Dawn. So may the flowing Soma bring us bliss to-day.
    3 May the great Twain, the Mothers, Heaven and Earth, this day preserve us free from sin for peace and happiness.

    [10-059] HYMN LIX. Nirrti and Others.
    7 May Earth restore to us our vital spirit, may Heaven the Goddess and mid-air restore it.
    May Soma give us once again our body, and Pusan show the Path of peace and comfort.

    [10-059] HYMN LIX. Nirrti and Others.

    7 May Earth restore to us our vital spirit, may Heaven the Goddess and mid-air restore it.
    May Soma give us once again our body, and Pusan show the Path of peace and comfort.

    [10-110] HYMN CX. Apris.

    4 By rule the Sacred Grass is scattered eastward, a robe to clothe this earth when dawns are
    breaking.
    Widely it spreads around and far-extended, fair for the Gods and bringing peace and freedom.

    [10-152] HYMN CLII. Indra.
    1. A MIGHTY Governor art thou, Wondrous, Destroyer of the foe,
    Whose friend is never done to death, and never, never overcome.
    2 Lord of the clan, who brings us bliss, Strong, Warrior, Slayer of the fiend,
    May India, Soma-drinker, go before us, Bull who gives us peace.
    3 Drive Raksasas and foes away, break thou in pieces Vrtra'sjaws:
    O Vrtra-slaying Indra, quell the foeman's wrath who threatens us.
    4 O Indra, beat our foes away, humble the men who challenge us:
    Send down to nether darkness him who seeks to do us injury.
    5 Baffle the foeman's plan, ward off his weapon who would conquer us.
    Give shelter from his furious wrath, and keep his murdering dart afar.

    [10-166] HYMN CLXVI. Sapatnanasanam.

    1. MAKE me a bull among my peers, make me my rivals, conqueror:
    Make me the slayer of my foes, a sovran ruler, lord of kine
    2 I am my rivals' slayer, like Indra unwounded and unhurt,
    And all these enemies of mine are vanquished and beneath my feet.
    3 Here, verily, I bind you fast, as the two bow-ends with the string.
    Press down these men, O Lord of Speech, that they may humbly speak to me.
    4 Hither I came as conqueror with mighty all-effecting power,
    And I have mastered all your thought, your synod, and your holy work.
    5 May I be highest, having gained your strength in war, your skill in peace
    my feet have trodden on your heads.
    Speak to me from beneath my feet, as frogs from out the water croak, as frogs from out the water croak.

    [10-182] HYMN CLXXXII. Brhaspati.

    1. BRHASPATI lead us safely over troubless and turn his evil thought against the sinner;
    Repel the curse, and drive away ill-feeling, and give the sacrificer peace and cornfort!
    2 May Naratarhsa aid us at Prayaja: blest be our Anuyaja at invokings.
    May he repel the curse, and chase ill-feeling, and give the sacrificer peace and comfort.
    3 May he whose head is flaming burn the demons, haters of prayer, so that the arrow slay them.
    May he repel the curse and chase ill-feeling, and give the sacrificer peace and comfort.

    http://www.sanskritweb.net/rigveda/griffith.pdf
    I think the verse that one quoted on peace in Rigveda are not there in Rigveda translated by Griffith. Please

    Regards
     
    #9 paarsurrey, Sep 5, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I have given all the place chapters with the verses on peace in the Rigveda in post #9 above.
    One may please note even these verses have invariably mentioned war like words in the internal context of the Rigveda, whereas Yajurveda/Rigveda have many, many and many more verses on war, war-heroes, battles,foes,enemy, kill,slayer, warriors,conqueror, soldiers, slay, destroy, destroyer and the like. Please
    Regards
     
    #10 paarsurrey, Sep 5, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  11. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    I don't think it is in chronological order. And there were many wars, duh human history. You don't seriously believe that with all the empires and the conquering goings on in ancient India that all the populace were nothing more than flower power hippies do you?
     
  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    It is told here by some friends that Vedic people came in the Indian-sub-Continent from somewhere else. How many battles/wars did the have with the locals here in the Indian-sub-Continent and how many they have before coming here or elsewhere they came from. May be they came from Australia or Africa or in from the Ex-Russian states or from the Arctic, as some friend here want us have to believe, from the internal clues in the Veda itself, not from the outside to start with . Please
    Regards
     
  13. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    A book has always a planning before one starts producing it. If it (Veda) is not in the chronological order then, what order/system does Veda have? Or is it in complete disorder? Please
    Regards
     
  14. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    You must mean the Indo-Aryan Migration Theory.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration_theory
    Wars happen. Been happening constantly worldwide since the beginning of our species. My guess is a lot wars occurred in India just as they did all over the world. What is your point exactly?
     
  15. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise

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    Lol it's more like a compilation that occurred over the centuries than a planned book. So
    Vedas are the oldest some spanning back to the 11th century. But what you have to remember is that the Vedas is not only broken up into separate categories, what's written down isn't all there is. It uses both written and oral techniques in tandem. So not everything that is in Hinduism is even recorded in our scriptures. And there are far more scriptures used in Hinduism than just the Vedas or the Rigveda. The emphasis given changes depending on the specific sect.
     
  16. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess
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    My apologies. The link has given incorrect references. The quote is in fact from the Atharva Veda (Book 12 (XII). Even here the translation differs:
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/av/av12001.htm

    But this hymn does not promote ahimsa. It is simply prayers to the Earth Mother.
     
  17. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess
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    Paar, I believe that Ahimsa is a philosophical conclusion that has arisen in history from scholars and great persons. When one becomes knowledgeable of the Vedic philosophies, it is difficult to deny ahimsa. We are repeatedly told in the scriptures that Brahman is all things, that we are all equal. We are taught that even the animals and plants, the gods and so on are all Him. And we worship Him. So why would we try to harm that which we Worship? That which is our own Self?

    This is an example from the Sama Veda; it even mentions peace.

    The Self is hidden in the lotus of the heart.
    Those who see themselves in all the creatures go day by day into the world of Brahman hidden in the heart. Established in peace, they rise above body consciousness to the supreme light of the Self. Immortal, free from fear, this Self is Brahman, called the True. Beyond the mortal and the immortal, he binds both worlds together. Those who know this live day after day in heaven in this very life.- Chandogya Upanishad
     
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  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks friend Madhuri.
    Salam and regards
     
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    This verse also doesn't talk of Ahimsa*, not harming , killing or waging battles or wars or bloodshed and the like. This verse talks of peace in the self, that means not harming or doing self-immolation or killing one's own self.

    * the principle of nonviolence toward all living things.

    Regards
     
  20. Madhuri

    Madhuri RF Goddess
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    Peace is referring to a state of consciousness, where the individual realises his connection with God. In such as state, one sees one's self in all things, including other people, animals, plants, gods etc. The 'Self', is God.

    My point is that such beliefs have led to Ahimsa becoming important in Hinduism. Do you understand what I have said?
     
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