1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Are there verses in the bible that have been proven to be scientifically true after the writing?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by A Son of God, Jul 5, 2018.

  1. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    26,368
    Ratings:
    +14,571
    Religion:
    Atheist
    I don't give two beans about Jericho. All that was found there was a walled city whose date and roughly matches the time of the Bible story. The subject was the Exodus and why we know that it did not happen.
     
  2. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Ratings:
    +169
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    When you say 'WE" for who else are you speaking?
     
  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    26,368
    Ratings:
    +14,571
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Anyone that has seriously studied the topic. People that only rely on "liars for Jesus" AKA "apologists" have not studied the topic seriously.
     
  4. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Ratings:
    +169
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    Which rules you right out of the picture doesn't it?
     
  5. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    26,368
    Ratings:
    +14,571
    Religion:
    Atheist

    But I can refer to them. I seriously doubt if you can support your claims.
     
  6. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Ratings:
    +169
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    From the Encarta encyclopedia: “Hyksos,” Semitic invaders who conquered Egypt in the early part of the 17th century BC and founded the 15th Dynasty. Sweeping south into Egypt, probably from Palestine and Syria, they and their nomadic followers captured Memphis and exacted tribute from the rest of the country. They established a stronghold at Avaris (possibly the later Tanis), on the northeastern border of the Nile delta, but left the territory above Memphis under the rule of tributary princes of the old nobility. These vassals started the nationalistic revolt that finally, under Ahmose I (reigned 1570-1546 BC), founder of the 18th Dynasty, drove out the foreign rulers.”

    Although it is said in Exodus 12: 40; that the Israelites had lived in Egypt for 430 years, in Galatians 3: 17; Paul makes it quite clear that they were in the land of Egypt for only 215 years. See Gal 3: 17; which states, “God made a covenant/promise with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law that was given [through Moses] 430 years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God’s promise.” Plus, the Greek Septuagint and the Samaritan bible, have Abraham and his descendants surjourning in the land of Canaan and Egypt for 430 years.

    After Abraham had been in the land of Canaan for 25 years, he sired Isaac, who was 60 years old when he Sired Jacob whose name was changed to Israel, who, at the age of 130 entered Egypt with his family and all his hired shepherds. 25+60+130=215. The Shepherd kings left Egypt 430 years after Abraham with his wife, his nephew, all his stock, hired help and possessions, entered the land of Canaan, revealing that they were in Egypt for only 215 years.

    But we wouldn’t expect an atheist to believe the bible, would we?

    From the Encarta encyclopedia: In the early part of the 17TH century B.C, Semetic invaders (Called Hyksos) swept into Egypt, most likely from Palestine and Syria. They would control Egypt for roughly two centuries.” --- (215 years if we are to believe the Bible.) The establishment of a Hyksos dynasty in northern Egypt marked the beginning of the Second Intermediate period, a time of turmoil and disunity that lasted for some 215 years.

    From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

    But we wouldn’t expect an atheist to believe any historical event that supports the bible, would we?

    Genesis 41: After Joseph had revealed to the king that his dreams were a prophecy telling of a seven year period of plenty, which would be followed by a seven year period of severe drought, Joseph is made Governor of all Egypt, and all Egyptians were commanded by the King to obey him. The King removed his royal ring with its engraved seal and put it on the finger of Joseph. He was given the second royal chariot and a guard of honour who went ahead of him crying out, “Make way, make way.” And the King said: I am King, but no one in all of Egypt shall so much as lift a hand or a foot without Joseph’s permission. He gave Joseph an Egyptian wife, Asenath, the daughter of the High priest of Heliopolis, who prophesied that if ever the bones of Joseph left Egypt, the LIGHT of Egypt would go with him. For that reason, a permanent guard was set up to keep watch over the tomb of Joseph, in order that no one could remove the mummified body of Joseph.

    During the seven years of plenty, Joseph gathered a percentage of the Egyptian grain crop as a tax, which was stored in silos throughout Egypt. In the early stages of the great seven-year drought, the Egyptians had to buy their grain from Joseph, when their money had all gone they traded their possessions and livestock, after which, they were forced to sign their land over for grain in order to survive.

    Genesis 47: 20-21. Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for the king. Every Egyptian was forced to sell their land, because the famine was so severe; Joseph made slaves of all the people from one end of Egypt to the other, without striking a blow.

    Fancy expecting an atheist to accept the bible which supports the historical view that the Hyksos [Israeli Shepherd Kings] took control of Egypt without striking a blow and ruled for some 2 centuries

    The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors, much like the cloak of many colours that was worn by Joseph the son of Israel and the first of the Hyksos kings.

    If Josephus the historian is correct and the exodus of the Shepherd Kings [The Israelites] did occur in 1567 BC, and Jericho was destroyed after they had wandered in the desert for 40 years, then according to the biblical account, the destruction of Jericho would have occurred around 1527 BC. 1567-40=1527.

    Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

    The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

    1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC, close enough to the 40 years after Josephus’ date for the Exodus in 1567. [1567-40=1527 BC]

    But again, we would not expect an atheist to accept any archaeological evidence that supports the bible.

    For 40 years the Israelites wandered the wilderness moving from camp to camp, packing up their tents and all their belonging when shifting from one camp to the next, leaving only their feaces behind, it would be impossible to identify any one of their camp sites over 3,500 years later.
     
  7. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    12,901
    Ratings:
    +6,214
    Religion:
    None
    You are of course speaking for yourself
    when you say "we", but for clarity, is your
    repetitive phrase about atheists not believing
    the bible just there for rhetorical purposes,
    or is that bigoted calumny?
     
  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    26,368
    Ratings:
    +14,571
    Religion:
    Atheist
    As I predicted you failed to support your claim.

    Quotes from some random source without a link are worthless.

    Nor do your quotes even seem that to support your claims. The very weak Jericho claims have nothing to do with the myth that we are discussing.
     
    #148 Subduction Zone, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  9. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    13,971
    Ratings:
    +3,159
    Religion:
    Theological noncognitivist
    The Hyksos have been ruled out as Hebrews decades ago.

    "Shepherd Kings." is from Greek not Egyptian and only used almost 15 centuries after the fact.
     
    #149 Shad, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Ratings:
    +169
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    From the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is also said here in the Encyclopedia Britannica, that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

    It is the Christians themselves who deny that the Hyksos were Israelites and were only in Egypt for some 200 years and who left in 1567 B C, because that proves that their bible, which erroneously states that the Israelites were in the land of Egypt for 430 years to the very day, cannot be trusted.

    They are looking for a date some 200 years after the Shepherd Kings left Egypt, for a mass migration from Egypt, of which there is no evidence whatsoever.

    Good Day, the wife and I are off to town, see youse all later.
     
    #150 The Anointed, Jul 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    26,368
    Ratings:
    +14,571
    Religion:
    Atheist
    There is no reason to believe that. And you still have not provided a link. You admit defeat by default.
     
  12. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Ratings:
    +169
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    All that I admit, is that you don't know what you are talking about, I have supplied you with the evidence that the only historic migration from Egypt by the shepherd kings was some 40 years before the destruction of Jericho, as revealed historically, archaeology, and biblically, If you are incapable of checking that evidence yourself, then that is your lose.
     
  13. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    26,368
    Ratings:
    +14,571
    Religion:
    Atheist

    Nope, you have only demonstrated a lack of knowledge of how to post evidence.

    First off you need a link to your sources so that others can check them out and see if your claims are correct. You did not do so. You are in effect wrong by default. Even a low level source such as Wikipedia, and factually it is probably as accurate as your source at any rate, defeats you:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

    "The exodus is the founding myth of the Israelites.[1][a] Spread over the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, it tells of the enslavement that befell the children of Israel in Egypt, their liberation through the hand of Yahweh and the revelations at Sinai, and their wanderings in the wilderness up to borders of Canaan, the land their God has given them"

    "The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of Israel.[34] There is no indication that the Israelites ever lived in Ancient Egypt, and the Sinai Peninsula shows almost no sign of any occupation for the entire 2nd millennium BCE (even Kadesh-Barnea, where the Israelites are said to have spent 38 years, was uninhabited prior to the establishment of the Israelite monarchy).[35] In contrast to the absence of evidence for the Egyptian captivity and wilderness wanderings, there are ample signs of Israel's evolution within Canaan from native Canaanite roots.[9] While a few scholars discuss the historicity, or at least plausibility, of the exodus story, the majority of archaeologists have abandoned it, in the phrase used by archaeologist William Dever, as "a fruitless pursuit".[36][37]"

    When you set the bar so extremely low it is child's play to show that you are wrong. All you could find was an article that you did not understand and did not link.
     
  14. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    13,971
    Ratings:
    +3,159
    Religion:
    Theological noncognitivist
    You mean this?

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hyksos-Egyptian-dynasty

    "Josephus himself wished to demonstrate the great antiquity of the Jews and thus identified the Hyksos with the Hebrews of the Bible. Hyksos was in fact probably an Egyptian term for “rulers of foreign lands” (heqa-khase), and it almost certainly designated the foreign dynasts rather than an ethnic group.


    Josephus' work was written in Greek.... I told you it was it Greek word and you own source confirmed it. Centuries after the fact as I told you....

    Then there is the following

    https://www.etymonline.com/word/Hyksos
    http://anthropology.msu.edu/anp455-us12/2012/08/02/who-were-the-hyksos/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho
     
    #154 Shad, Jul 12, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Ratings:
    +169
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    The traditional date of the Exodus according to Jews and the Christians, is in the 13th century, some 200 years after the expulsion of the Hyksos, this is because, in the current erroneous Hebrew bible and the Christian OT, it is said in Exodus 12: 40; that the Israelites had lived in Egypt for 430 years, while in Galatians 3: 17; Paul who studied under Gameliel, who was a leading authority of the Sanhedrin in the 1st century, makes it quite clear that they were in the land of Egypt for only 215 years. See Gal 3: 17; which states, “God made a covenant/agreement with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law that was given [through Moses] 430 years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God’s promise.” Plus, the Greek Septuagint and the Samaritan bible, have Abraham and his descendants surjourning in the land of Canaan and Egypt for 430 years.

    Knowing that the family of Abraham, were in the land of Canaan for 215 years, before his grandson Jacob, who was named Israel, and who at the age of 130 entered the land of Egypt with his family, his extensive herds, of cattle, goats and sheep and all his hired shepherds, where they remained for 215 years, leaving the land of Egypt 430 years after God had made his covenant with Abraham, that if he would leave his country and the house of his father and move into the land of Canaan, he would give that land to him and his descendants as an everlasting inheritance.

    The Hyksos are well known from ancient texts, and their expulsion was recorded in later ancient Egyptian historical narratives. The third-century B.C.E. Egyptian historian Manetho–whose semi-accurate histories stand out as valuable resources for cataloging Egyptian kingship–wrote of the Hyksos’ violent entry into Egypt from the north, and the founding of their monumental capital at Avaris, a city associated with the famous excavations at Tell ed-Dab’a. After the Hyksos were expelled from Egypt, Manetho reports that they wandered the desert before establishing the city of Jerusalem.

    “After the conclusion of the treaty they [The Hyksos] left with their families and chattels, not fewer than two hundred and forty thousand people, and crossed the desert into Syria. Fearing the Assyrians, who dominated over Asia at that time, they built a city in the country which we now call Judea. It was large enough to contain this great number of men and was called Jerusalem.”
    –Josephus, Against Apion 1.73.7, quoting Manetho’s Aegyptiaca

    Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos “shepherd kings. And dates the event as 1567 B C, 40 years before the destruction of Jericho as revealed by the noted archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon.

    You may quote as many modern-day scholars as you like who reject the fact that the Hyksos were the Israelites and I will quote more modern-day scholars who will supply evidence that they were. You refuse to believe the evidence because you want to disbelieve any evidence that supports the bible, revealing that there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    As far as I am concerned, this particular subject is closed. Those who read, can choose to believe or disbelieve, it is not my intention to jam a truth down the subjects throat, but to merely reveal the truths as recorded in the Holy Scriptures.
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    26,368
    Ratings:
    +14,571
    Religion:
    Atheist
    You have not been able to support one claim yet. You improperly quoted from an article that did not support you and did not link it.

    And I doubt if you can find a serious authority that agrees with you. Apologists, yes, but they are merely liars for Jesus.

    Quote from an article and link to it.
     
  17. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2014
    Messages:
    13,971
    Ratings:
    +3,159
    Religion:
    Theological noncognitivist
    While you were busy copying Wiener did you bother to read the rest? Such as..

    "While Josephus cites Manetho’s history associating the Israelites with the Hyksos, many modern scholars see problems with Manetho’s conflation of the expulsion of the Hyksos and the Biblical narrative. Manetho lived many centuries after these events took place, and he may have combined two different narratives, wittingly or unwittingly, when associating the Hyksos and Israelites. Ahmose’s defeat of the Hyksos occurred centuries before the traditional date of the Exodus. In addition, the basic premise of the Hyksos and Exodus histories differ: the Hyksos were expelled rulers of Egypt, not slaves, and they were forced out, not pursued."

    https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...ar-eastern-world/the-expulsion-of-the-hyksos/
     
  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,615
    Ratings:
    +169
    Religion:
    biblical believer
    The traditional date of the Exodus according to Jews and the Christians, is in the 13th century, some 200 years after the expulsion of the Hyksos, this is because, in the current erroneous Hebrew bible and the Christian OT, it is said in Exodus 12: 40; that the Israelites had lived in Egypt for 430 years, while in Galatians 3: 17; Paul who studied under Gameliel, who was a leading authority of the Sanhedrin in the 1st century, makes it quite clear that they were in the land of Egypt for only 215 years. See Gal 3: 17; which states, “God made a covenant/agreement with Abraham and promised to keep it. The Law that was given [through Moses] 430 years later, cannot break that covenant and cancel God’s promise.” Plus, the Greek Septuagint and the Samaritan bible, have Abraham and his descendants surjourning in the land of Canaan and Egypt for 430 years.

    Leaving the land of Egypt a little over 200 years before the traditional date of the Exodus according to the Jews and the Christians erroneous belief that the Israelites were in the land of Egypt for 430 years, rather than in the land of Canaan and Egypt for 430 years..
     
  19. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    8,568
    Ratings:
    +8,014
    Religion:
    Pluralist Hindu
    Hyksos were not Jews. There is nothing Jewish about their archaeology (which includes human sacrifice at the tombs of their chiefs and prominent temples of Baal etc.). Also they ruled upper Egypt and Levant/Jordan simultaneously for several centuries.
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    26,368
    Ratings:
    +14,571
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Even with this week excuse the article that you did link properly still refutes your own claim.

    As others have shown, there is a reason that one needs a link to a quote. Quoting out of context is called quote mining. It is usually used as a form of lying and should be avoided in a debate. I could say the Bible says:

    "there is no god" twelve different times and be correct. To say that that means the Bible supports atheism would be a lie. Those quotes would all be out of context. It would be a form of lying. What you are doing is very close to that.

    Quotes without links to sources are worthless in a debate as has been shown with the source that you used. And we are back to no evidence for the Exodus when it should be there in droves.
     
    #160 Subduction Zone, Jul 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
Loading...