Are there limits to logic?

[Sunstone]

Are there limits to the usefulness of logic in understanding life? If so, what are those limits? If not, does that imply that life (i.e. the universe) is inherently logical?

Again, if logic is all that is necessary to understanding life and the universe, then why do we have such a tough time being logical? Why didn't natural selection eliminate the possibility of our being illogical?

Furthermore, does the power of mathematics -- which is after all, pure logic -- to describe natural phenomena indicate that the universe and life are indeed logical?

 

[No*s]

Logic is only useful as long as the presuppositions behind it are correct. Here is a perfectly logical syllogism:

All men are pink with purple polka dots.
I am a man.
I am pink with purple polka dots.

The statement is perfectly logical. It's just dead wrong. The less we can verify our assumptions, the less certain we can be.

 

[Sunstone]

Is logic lame without observation, then, No*s?

 

[t3gah]

You could always use the quote that Mister Spock made on the Star Trek episode, I Mudd (Harry Mudd, Mudd the 1st)

Logic is like a pretty flower that smells bad.


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[No*s]

Is logic lame without observation, then, No*s?

I would say so, to a degree, yes. I would also say that it is lame with observation. Observation, really, tells us nothing. We have to interpret those facts. If our interpretation of the facts is wrong, we again have wrong presuppositions, and again our logic is flawed.

I'm more trying to say that logic is a tool. That is all it is, and it may be used or misused just like any other tool. It, thus, does have real limits.

 

[lilithu]

Logic by itself also carries no moral/ethical value inherently within it. It does not by itself guide us in how to live in this world. People have tried to derive an ethical system based on logic alone but they fall short, imo. For example, the logical argument is made that people logically should not take unfair advantage of other people because this will cause the other people to be uncooperative with the person. A person isolated from the community, especially in an environment where resources are scarce, is at a distinct disadvantage. So far so good.

However, if a person perceives the opportunity to take advantage of someone else and is absolutely certain of not being caught, then logic alone will dictate that the person should do so. Some people may see nothing wrong with this. I personally do.

 

[Fluffy]

Are there limits to the usefulness of logic in understanding life? If so, what are those limits? If not, does that imply that life (i.e. the universe) is inherently logical?

Yeah logic has major limits. For example, logic alone will often lead to not being able to deduce anything since at what point can we say that we are not making an assumption where we can then base logic onto it?

Logic needs to be used with other tools. Rationality can tell us when it is safe to make an assumption and therefore when it is okay to use logic. For example its perfectly fine to assume that all the beliefs of a religion are correct if you wish to discuss the logic of the relationship between these beliefs.

The universe appears to be logical. However, perhaps we are not capable of comprehending the incomprehensible and so all of the universes illogicity is lost on us.

 

[Sunstone]

It seems that most things in this world can be described mathematically -- at least in principle. And mathematics is pure logic. So, doesn't that seem to imply that the world is logical?

But if the world is logical, then what are we to make of political pundits (a class of people who often use the word "logic", but seldom practice it)?

 

[lilithu]

Another thing that logic does not describe is humour, especially ironic or sarcastic humour.

Nor does it describe beauty.

 

[Sunstone]

Another thing that logic does not describe is humour, especially ironic or sarcastic humour.

Nor does it describe beauty.

Logic, in and of itself, doesn't go very far to make life worthwhile, but those things that you mention, Lilithu, do.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

Logic is all fine and good (although it's a tool, not some goal in life, I should hope), if you're being completely logical about it. Humans tend not to be. We'll twist stuff, forget to look at something, jump to conclusions, assume things (you have to assume to survive...say, assuming that bears are dangerous and getting the heck away is helpful, even if that particular bear you're looking at has no intention of attacking, so it's not always helpful to sit and think everything out, natural selection would select against that, not for it)...yes, I think the universe is logical, at some level, I just don't think we are.

 

[Fluffy]

Quote: (Originally Posted by lilithu)
Another thing that logic does not describe is humour, especially ironic or sarcastic humour.

Nor does it describe beauty.

Logic, in and of itself, doesn't go very far to make life worthwhile, but those things that you mention, Lilithu, do.

And logically, they really shouldn't .

 

[hoomer]

Logic has an end...reality(God) has no end....

http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html

Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem

In 1931, the Czech-born mathematician Kurt Gödel demonstrated that within any given branch of mathematics, there would always be some propositions that couldn't be proven either true or false using the rules and axioms ... of that mathematical branch itself. You might be able to prove every conceivable statement about numbers within a system by going outside the system in order to come up with new rules and axioms, but by doing so you'll only create a larger system with its own unprovable statements. The implication is that all logical system of any complexity are, by definition, incomplete; each of them contains, at any given time, more true statements than it can possibly prove according to its own defining set of rules.

Gödel's Theorem has been used to argue that a computer can never be as smart as a human being because the extent of its knowledge is limited by a fixed set of axioms, whereas people can discover unexpected truths ... It plays a part in modern linguistic theories, which emphasize the power of language to come up with new ways to express ideas. And it has been taken to imply that you'll never entirely understand yourself, since your mind, like any other closed system, can only be sure of what it knows about itself by relying on what it knows about itself.



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