Are there different kinds of awareness like in Ecclesiastes 9:10?For the Jehovah's Witness.

[Frank Goad]

In Ecclesiastes 9:10 it says you literal can't know anything in sheol.Like right here: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/ecclesiastes/9/

But in Isaiah 14:9-10 it says in verse 9.That the dead in sheol can be woken up to greet new comers.Like here:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/isaiah/14/

Also in Luke 16:19-31.It looks like those in sheol can talk to each other.But here sheol is called hades.Like here: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/luke/16/

In Luke 16:19-31 It looks like the damned and saved can stay aware long after being dead.Or at least that is what is implied.Also in verse 26 it says a gulf has been fixed so people can't go back and froth between heaven and hell.That wouldn't be needed if the dead are only aware for a short time.Like in Isaiah 14:9-10.

I am doing this based off of jw beliefs.With some of my own.That is the reason my post sounds so strange.

 

[JoshuaTree]

I'd go with Solomon, Ecclesiastes is my favorite book @Frank Goad !

 

[Bree]

hey Frank,
The rich man and lazarus illustration is not a description of the dead, it is an illustration of the spiritual condition of the religious leaders and the poor people of Jesus day.

The dead are not conscious. Death is opposite of life.

The only way the dead will ever become conscious is when they are resurrected...that is, when they are recreated and life is restored to them.

 

[Muffled]

I believe the Ecclesiastes verse is talking about the physical body. It knows nothing after death.

 

[Muffled]

hey Frank,
The rich man and lazarus illustration is not a description of the dead, it is an illustration of the spiritual condition of the religious leaders and the poor people of Jesus day.

The dead are not conscious. Death is opposite of life.

The only way the dead will ever become conscious is when they are resurrected...that is, when they are recreated and life is restored to them.

I believe as usual JWs ignore scripture that doesn't agree with their false beliefs. Either that or they will misinterpret things to agree with their false beliefs.

 

[Bree]

I believe as usual JWs ignore scripture that doesn't agree with their false beliefs. Either that or they will misinterpret things to agree with their false beliefs.

I can't imagine that a single drop of water would ease the suffering of someone burning in fire, do you?

i also can't imagine that someone who really was in such a place as hell (if it existed) would be able to look into heaven and speak to those dwelling there, do you?

The illustration is full of oxymorons.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I can't imagine that a single drop of water would ease the suffering of someone burning in fire, do you?

i also can't imagine that someone who really was in such a place as hell (if it existed) would be able to look into heaven and speak to those dwelling there, do you?

The illustration is full of oxymorons.

So you think Jesus literally made up an afterlife that doesn't exist merely to make a point about living a good life? Wouldn't that make him a false teacher?

 

[Bree]

So you think Jesus literally made up an afterlife that doesn't exist merely to make a point about living a good life? Wouldn't that make him a false teacher?

Yes and No.

Yes he made up this story to teach a truth as he did on many other occasions.
The illustration of the 'wheat and weeds' described the good and bad people.
The story of the 'good samaritan' was a made up story to show people how to be a 'good neighbour'

No telling these stories does not make him a false teacher. A false teacher is one who tries to tell you that these stories are based on facts.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Yes and No.

Yes he made up this story to teach a truth as he did on many other occasions.
The illustration of the 'wheat and weeds' described the good and bad people.
The story of the 'good samaritan' was a made up story to show people how to be a 'good neighbour'

No telling these stories does not make him a false teacher. A false teacher is one who tries to tell you that these stories are based on facts.

Using metaphors is not the same as creating an entire afterlife that does not exist.

This isn't a mere parable.

 

[nPeace]

In Ecclesiastes 9:10 it says you literal can't know anything in sheol.Like right here: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/ecclesiastes/9/

But in Isaiah 14:9-10 it says in verse 9.That the dead in sheol can be woken up to greet new comers.Like here:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/isaiah/14/

Also in Luke 16:19-31.It looks like those in sheol can talk to each other.But here sheol is called hades.Like here: https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/books/luke/16/

In Luke 16:19-31 It looks like the damned and saved can stay aware long after being dead.Or at least that is what is implied.Also in verse 26 it says a gulf has been fixed so people can't go back and froth between heaven and hell.That wouldn't be needed if the dead are only aware for a short time.Like in Isaiah 14:9-10.

I am doing this based off of jw beliefs.With some of my own.That is the reason my post sounds so strange.

I'm thinking of Luke 13:23-29, and yet 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 tells us Jesus will arrive, and destroy those who do not know God, nor obey him. This is i line with what he said at Matthew 24:42-44, that his arrival will be sudden - unexpected - like a thief in the night.
Those verses do not indicate an opportunity for those not getting through the door, to be knocking on it.

Could Jesus be using the text in Luke 13:23-29, to illustrate the situation? Could he likewise be using the text, in Luke 16:19-31, to illustrate a situation?

I think as long as we do not ignore texts that give a clear teaching, such as Ecclesiastes 9:10, and others, whic show the dead are not conscious or active, we would be able to see clearly when Jesus is illustrating... which he often did, and for good reason.

(Matthew 13:10-15) 10 So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11 In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him, and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 That is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations; for looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, nor do they get the sense of it. 14 And the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled in their case. It says: ‘You will indeed hear but by no means get the sense of it, and you will indeed look but by no means see. 15 For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes, so that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back and I heal them.’

Jesus explains it pretty straightforward and simple, didn't he?