Are there any mentions of the fate of the wicked in pre-christian influence Norse Mythology ?

[The Kilted Heathen]

None of the things that he presents are fantasy, Cassandra. They have historical backing, and he cites those sources. Again, you don't have room to criticize anything regarding Heathenry as "fantasy" with some of the stuff you've put out.

And if European scholars really dreaded American scholars so much, he wouldn't have been a consultant on several projects regarding Norse culture from folks in Sweden.

 

[Cassandra]

This is also worth watching:

Great series! I wish we had more of those. Real science, not "science fiction" like Dr. Crawford is engaging in.

Did you watch all three of them? You also noticed what he said about the people that migrated to Iceland?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I wish we had more of those. Real science, not "science fiction" like Dr. Crawford is engaging in.

So where's your PhD, Cassandra?

 

[Cassandra]

None of the things that he presents are fantasy, Cassandra. They have historical backing, and he cites those sources. Again, you don't have room to criticize anything regarding Heathenry as "fantasy" with some of the stuff you've put out.

"Historical backing". hmmmmm... I guess that is vague enough.

And if European scholars really dreaded American scholars so much, he wouldn't have been a consultant on several projects regarding Norse culture from folks in Sweden.

On scripture, no doubt.

So where's your PhD, Cassandra?

I admit, I have no Ph D in Norse Archeology, and neither has Dr. Crawford. The difference is that I am not making videos on the subject. Here is another video of on Norse life and he admits he is not Archeologist. Still that does not stop him from fantasizing.

Like when he is talking about the Norse eating potatoes or meat. Potatoes? Does he not even know that potatoes come from the America's and were introduced in Europe only in the second half of the 16th century (by the Spanish). So how were Norsemen eating potatoes? Or are they fantasy potatoes?

Do I need a Ph d. in archeology to tell, this guy is making it up?

Then the picture he paints of Norse people fighting all the time because they are so manly, they even have to fight their own neighbors. Surely the man understands very little of the dynamics of living in a harsh environment. The only way to survive is not to fight each other, but stick together and be social. They need each other to survive in the harsh environment.

Yes they need to be manly. But not because they have to fear their neighbor (who is family), but because there are very dangerous gangs roaming and pillaging the countryside. Especially the wild young men calling themselves the bearmen and wolvesmen. So you absolutely need the community for protection. As far as infighting goes, what you have is feuds. That is a problem. Feuds between powerful families can go on for generations.

That is also why people are outlawed when they are perceived as a danger to the community. This is a very hard sentence. You can not survive on your own, and either these people are forced to live in even more inhabitable places, or they join a gang, or go pillaging other territories, or they die get killed or die.

It may have some similarities with picture painted in westerns, with an important exception. these people are heavily related, they are not newcomers. In such communities all people are related. If you are not born there, you might as well be from another country. They have their own social system and they take care of their own. if you are not married into it, you are excluded from it.

And remember they have no internet, no television, no books. These people gather. they eat and drink together. They are not private like modern people, they like company. They love to eat, drink and sing together. they form strong bonds. They like musicians and good story tellers. These people are excellent storytellers. They like visitors for their stories. As some of them travel far, they have lots of interesting stories. And they have a memory for stories, much better than people today. Nothing beats a good story around the fire place. dr Crawford would have been a good storyteller.

People of Upaladik: Let me tell you about the land beyond the great sea, Vinland... It is strange land. There, people are quarreling and fighting all the time, especially their neighbors. And they hear lies most of the time. They have no regard for the truth. Their king trumps them all, and he is chosen because he wins the lying contest. They regularly wage war, but they are not very courageous, They only pick a fight when there is no chance of losing. They rely on their superior weapons, magic and cunning. When a small part of their army dies, they no longer want to fight. They worship a demon God whose slaves they are made into from birth. To get entrance into his realm, they do not have to show bravery or even fight, just admit to slavery. It is a strange land, Vinland.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

"Historical backing". hmmmmm... I guess that is vague enough.

Read any of the Sagas (specifically that of Egil) to get a better understanding of the culture that he's speaking about, Cassandra. Rather than clinging to your idealized version of what Norse culture was like.

On scripture, no doubt.

You'd be wrong. His studies and profession is Scandinavian culture and linguistics, Old Norse, and Scandinavian mythology. He does not touch on Christian scripture.

I admit, I have no Ph D in Norse Archeology, and neither has Dr. Crawford.

Well, there you're right. He has a Ph.D. in Scandinavian Studies, an M.A. in Linguistics, and a B.A. in Classics and Classical Languages, Literatures, and Linguistics.

The rest of your tirade rejects a lot of historical fact to maintain your idealized fantasy of Norse culture devoid of conflict and struggle.

 

[Cassandra]

Read any of the Sagas (specifically that of Egil) to get a better understanding of the culture that he's speaking about, Cassandra. Rather than clinging to your idealized version of what Norse culture was like.


You'd be wrong. His studies and profession is Scandinavian culture and linguistics, Old Norse, and Scandinavian mythology. He does not touch on Christian scripture.


Well, there you're right. He has a Ph.D. in Scandinavian Studies, an M.A. in Linguistics, and a B.A. in Classics and Classical Languages, Literatures, and Linguistics.

The rest of your tirade rejects a lot of historical fact to maintain your idealized fantasy of Norse culture devoid of conflict and struggle.

Scripture is not Christian scripture. The man is a linguist, nothing more. And he tells rubbish. life was much to hard for fighting your neighbors all the time and they did not eat potatoes.

It is really some young neopagans who have a romanticized picture of these brave warriors all the time proving their manlihood, never leaving an insult unanswered, but rather drawing blood. Always carrying their swords (I doubt farmers had swords) Did you see the advertisement for swords on dr. Crawford's video? Hilarious.

But at least it good to know what people base on.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The man is a linguist, nothing more.

The man is an M.A. in linguistics. He is a PhD of Scandinavian Studies, which goes beyond linguistics.

Source the video for the potatoes, or you're the one speaking rubbish Cassandra. I'd wager you didn't pay close attention to it.

Did you see the advertisement for swords on dr. Crawford's video? Hilarious.

Did you pay attention to who it was? Grimfrost sells swords, yes. Reconstructions of archaeological finds, from the graves of kings and warriors. They also craft and sell jewelry of the same source (archaeological finds), and teach of Norse and viking history. They've several very informative blogs on the Runestones that surround their shop in Sweden, as well as blogs on Norse hygiene and fashion.

Your ignorance is overflowing here, Cassandra. I'll be waiting on that potato video.

 

[Cassandra]

The man is an M.A. in linguistics. He is a PhD of Scandinavian Studies, which goes beyond linguistics.

Source the video for the potatoes, or you're the one speaking rubbish Cassandra. I'd wager you didn't pay close attention to it.

Indeed, I made a mistranslation. Shame on me.

Did you pay attention to who it was? Grimfrost sells swords, yes. Reconstructions of archaeological finds, from the graves of kings and warriors. They also craft and sell jewelry of the same source (archaeological finds), and teach of Norse and viking history. They've several very informative blogs on the Runestones that surround their shop in Sweden, as well as blogs on Norse hygiene and fashion.

Your ignorance is overflowing here, Cassandra. I'll be waiting on that potato video.

I did some reading up on the Vikings and indeed latest research changed the picture again in a negative way, and tells not only Vikings were really horrible people but Nordic society was also engaged in these activities. Now let us assume this is how it stays, and science does not change her mind again.

That is a disappointment, but no problem for me, for I never had a liking for these Vikings anyway. And if the Norse engaged broadly in that, I have no liking for people of that period either. I am not a psychopath. I do not like slave traders of any kind whether they are Viking, Roman, Jewish, Arab, Spanish, Tartar, Mongol, American or Dutch or whatever.

So now we know the Norse were no better than Abrahamists with total disregard of human dignity. That leaves the question why neopagans want tot dress up like them and buy Viking swords and stuff?

So why do this? What is the attraction in this? Why do people want to mimic them and dress up like them. Why do they like metal music glorifying their violence? Why do they want to make their practices into a religion? To feel like an ancient butcher? You can pick any place and time from history, why focus on one when evil people ruled. Why glorify when people were at their worst? Is it immature behavior? Is it counterculture? Is it fashion?

I do not judge, but i am interested. On this forum you have taken the lead in that. If I may ask: Why are you into that Raging Pagan? You made your point how rotten they were, now tell me why you like rotten. I am interested in the human mind, whether it is sane or insane.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Still waiting on that potato video, Cassandra.

 

[Cassandra]

Still waiting on that potato video, Cassandra.

At least read, before you reply. I admitted my mistake. You won!

Now in turn, answer my questions.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Indeed, I made a mistranslation. Shame on me.

This isn't really a light ordeal, Cassandra. You went on for several posts calling into question Dr. Crawford's presentations, works, and even his PhD; something that's not just handed out to anyone. You claimed that he's feeding out pure fantasy, when in fact it was your mistake and inattentiveness that led to confusion and misconception. So, yes. Shame on you.

I did some reading up on the Vikings and indeed latest research changed the picture again in a negative way,

You must not have read something very recent, or read it very carefully. Or, you simply didn't like what it had to say because you refuse to believe that war and conflict was and is a fact of every single culture, including the Norse. I have a National Geographic publication from last year that explores Norse culture regarding home life, clothing style for various ages, and putting emphasis on the historical fact of them being explorers and traders.

However war and conflict is an absolute fact to Norse culture - no different than any other culture. Their literature, history, and artwork is full of it, as are several of their festivals and holy days. The historical feast of Sigrblót, for example, was an offering to Odin to ensure victory and success on coming raids and battles. This cannot be ignored from their history, just because you don't like it.

So now we know the Norse were no better than Abrahamists with total disregard of human dignity. That leaves the question why neopagans want tot dress up like them and buy Viking swords and stuff?

I think you need to take a good long look at things, Cassandra. You need to view things with an open, honest mind, and shed yourself of many of the misconceptions and biases that you have. There is more to a culture than war, which in and of itself does not equal a "total disregard of human dignity", and in fact it is you that is obsessed with this moreso than anyone that you criticize. You're going to be looking long and hard if you expect to find a religion with no shadows.

I do not judge,

You judge quite a bit, Cassandra.

On this forum you have taken the lead in that. If I may ask: Why are you into that Raging Pagan? You made your point how rotten they were, now tell me why you like rotten. I am interested in the human mind, whether it is sane or insane.

You need to back up these accusations, Cassandra. I do not appreciate my beliefs and interests being assumed in such a manner, nor do I like the insinuation that I may be insane.

 

[Cassandra]

This isn't really a light ordeal, Cassandra. You went on for several posts calling into question Dr. Crawford's presentations, works, and even his PhD; something that's not just handed out to anyone. You claimed that he's feeding out pure fantasy, when in fact it was your mistake and inattentiveness that led to confusion and misconception. So, yes. Shame on you.

Rub it in Ragin Pagin.
I admit my mistakes even before the small-hearted.

You must not have read something very recent, or read it very carefully. Or, you simply didn't like what it had to say because you refuse to believe that war and conflict was and is a fact of every single culture, including the Norse. I have a National Geographic publication from last year that explores Norse culture regarding home life, clothing style for various ages, and putting emphasis on the historical fact of them being explorers and traders.

However war and conflict is an absolute fact to Norse culture - no different than any other culture. Their literature, history, and artwork is full of it, as are several of their festivals and holy days. The historical feast of Sigrblót, for example, was an offering to Odin to ensure victory and success on coming raids and battles. This cannot be ignored from their history, just because you don't like it.

I think you need to take a good long look at things, Cassandra. You need to view things with an open, honest mind, and shed yourself of many of the misconceptions and biases that you have. There is more to a culture than war, which in and of itself does not equal a "total disregard of human dignity", and in fact it is you that is obsessed with this moreso than anyone that you criticize. You're going to be looking long and hard if you expect to find a religion with no shadows.

One moment accusing next moment excusing. Whatever fits the bill.

I was naive, romanticizing for not believing Norse people were like the warring Vikings. Now I admit wrong. But when faced with the consequences, they are suddenly portraied as not so bad and excuses are made. We are not talking war here anymore, that is the whole point.

Now having a slave economy, the burning animals and people, the grand scale ill-treatment of slaves, the huge number of sex slaves, apart from gross cruelty in their raids is no longer a problem.

Well I feel it shows them lowlifes.You may not want to believe this, but one tribe is not the same as another. It is possible to be brave without being cruel, even in war. These are the kind, I would not want to associate with. But that is me.

It reminds me of a psychopath that was in the worst American prison where people are viciously attacked every day. He said, you may think this is hell, but for me this is heaven. I enjoy this even more than raping your wife. I guess, that guy would have been a great Viking. But I am not judging. Some people are born that way. Like the guy said: I just don't feel for people, never have.

You judge quite a bit, Cassandra.

Look who is talking.

You need to back up these accusations, Cassandra. I do not appreciate my beliefs and interests being assumed in such a manner, nor do I like the insinuation that I may be insane.

I made a general remark about me.
Who fits the shoe will put it on, is the saying that applies here.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

One moment accusing next moment excusing. Whatever fits the bill.

Hmm, I see you omitted the insult. Smart move, but I still saw it via e-mail.

However no, Cassandra, I do not "turn like a wind vane." My position has remained constant throughout this thread, and indeed across the entire forum. It's no fault of mine if you lack attentiveness, and this is more baseless accusations of yours.

You have a very biased tendency to swing between polar opposites, and view that as the universal status quo. Either the Norse were peace-loving hippies like you seem to want, or they were barbarous savages that did nothing but rape and burn. It's an incredibly ignorant position to hold, Cassandra.

But I am not judging.

You've done nothing but, this entire thread.

Look who is talking.

Difference between you and I, Cassandra, is that I don't say that I'm not judging out one corner of my mouth, while judging out the other. You have been.

I made a general remark about me.

No, you did not. You asked me why I enjoy or am "in to" rottenness. You demanded questions based on assumption of my perspective and view, and then made mention that you like getting perspectives on minds whether sane or insane. Which casts significant insinuation that you think I'm insane, to add to your various (incorrect) assumptions about me.

You need to answer for that, or we have nothing to discuss further.

 

[HeatyHeathen]

Holy Molly, this little thread of mine has gone from 0 to 100 really quickly, hasnt it ?

Now, I dont want to quote anyone here because I feel like this would be compromising myself in a discussion I admitely havent even gotten past the enthusiast level of knowledge, but if we discount the passionate overloading Cassandra had here...

- Dont take this to the wrong side, Cassandra, I've seen many other starting pagans like us getting drunk on the sheer POWAH METAL of the whole thing because, honestly, its kind of liberating to be able to exert your inner life affirming spiritually after being told your whole life you're wrong for not being spiritually castrated-

...she really kind of has a point when talking about Crawford "not getting it", Raging. You see, if even professionals of fields of study like the STEM ones are prone to being biased and personal on their positions, who's to say otherwise to the study of cultures ?

Even if you try your hardest to objectively study a culture you have absolutely no connection to, you're still ending the day with a heavilly distorted reconstruction of what that thing actually is -Thats why people rain mud so much over weeaboos - and I do sometimes get the impression Crawford lets his american moral views slip a tad bit over his analysis.

I mean, the sole fact I, a literal random dude from South America, even got interested in understanding a culture apparently so distant from mine is the fact I always had the echoes of my ancestry in my psyche, my way of seeing the world and my moral values that were passed down my family line, which enabled my fathers kin to prosper against the hard odds they were in not so long ago.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

...she really kind of has a point when talking about Crawford "not getting it", Raging. You see, if even professionals of fields of study like the STEM ones are prone to being biased and personal on their positions, who's to say otherwise to the study of cultures ?

Not really, and she's even conceded this (for now). What Dr. Crawford presents about the cultural views of shame and honor are backed by the Sagas and stories of Scandinavian culture.

I do sometimes get the impression Crawford lets his american moral views slip a tad bit over his analysis.

I honestly don't see how, because they're notions that are completely foreign to American notions of morality. Capitalism doesn't care about honorable conduct, and neither does American society - at least not at current. Scumbags walk free and untouchable, and get voted into the highest office we have. How often in America do we hear "good guys finish last"?

 

[HeatyHeathen]

What Dr. Crawford presents about the cultural views of shame and honor are backed by the Sagas and stories of Scandinavian culture.

No, thats not what I meant when I said he "didnt get it", that vision is accurate. What I said about his american views sipping in is that he sports this weird view that all scandinavians were these ******* football jock types that would mercilessly mock a person for being handicapped or whateaver. Because apparently, pagan people cant have empathy, and respect to others is a monopoly of abrahamic cults.

I honestly don't see how, because they're notions that are completely foreign to American notions of morality.

This part came off as kind of random, then again, I wasnt talking about honor as being the part where Crawford mistook things.

Capitalism doesn't care about honorable conduct, and neither does American society - at least not at current. Scumbags walk free and untouchable, and get voted into the highest office we have. How often in America do we hear "good guys finish last"?

Then again, kind of random since I wasnt talking about honor being the american part JC hamfisted into the narrative.

Also, really dude ? You know Scandinavians were some of the most libertarian peoples in ancient times and you go on to have such basic nanny state lover discourses ? You do know they would've been wiped out of that peninsula if it were not for the "scumbag" capitalists that went to trade furs for lapis and other stuff.

What makes a person valuable or not is the amount of prosperity it can harness to the community, regardless if he says "mean stuff" or does "rude things". Thats even the point Dr.Crawford gets across !!!

Look, i'm not here to pour brown on you but just think youre maybe crying with your belly full when you're living in one of the most prosperous countries on Earth, whose foundations were laid exactly by the people you seem to have so much contempt about and that had the same morality and industrious spirits as the ancestors you strive to admire, even if said founders nominally said they worshipped the Jew on a Stick.

Man, I know some things may be rough, healthcare over there must be a total b*tch and education is a whole other can of worms, but you gotta understand that you're poiting your gun at the wrong enemy ! If it wasnt for the stupid bureaucratization done by the state, things would be much, much better for you all there and life would be much, much more affordable for everyone.

As someone whos from Latin America, trust us, you wont want to pay for the show types like Bernie Sanders will want to put for you to swallow. I lived most of my childhood over such a type of goverment here and it has only brought us a false sense of prosperity and political divide.

Wish you the best and I hope you reconsider your positions.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

What I said about his american views sipping in is that he sports this weird view that all scandinavians were these ******* football jock types that would mercilessly mock a person for being handicapped or whateaver.

Only, he didn't say all Scandinavians. Yet we have many Sagas and tales straight from Scandinavian countries that exemplify just this manner of behavior. For example, Ivar the Boneless, Sigurd Snake-in-the-eye, Óttarr the Vendel Crow, Walking-Hrólfr, Magnús Barefoot, Þorbjǫrg Coal Brow, and many others that describe and mock physical deformity, habit, or instances of their past.

Also, really dude ? You know Scandinavians were some of the most libertarian peoples in ancient times and you go on to have such basic nanny state lover discourses ? You do know they would've been wiped out of that peninsula if it were not for the "scumbag" capitalists that went to trade furs for lapis and other stuff.

I think you're greatly oversimplifying what I said, or taking it completely wrong. Misunderstanding what you said (though it was relatively vague, and different from Cassandra's point entirely,) I was stating that Norse notions of honor and shame - backed by the Sagas and cultural customs that we know about through anthropology - are quite different than American notions (which function heavily on Capitalism), and that what Dr. Crawford presents is that of Scandinavian culture, not American.

The following rant is so far off left field that there's not really an apt response to it that would be relevant to the discussion at hand.