1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Are the Rabbinic Jews Unknowingly Rejecting God According to the Texts?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by wizanda, Oct 27, 2019.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    It won't be convincing without The Torah.
     
  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,494
    Ratings:
    +1,982
    Religion:
    Øneness
    That is the whole Bible with Hebrew, Greek, and Strongs reference numbers next to it, for cross referencing all material.
    Muhammad was saying the Jews are Cursed, and it wasn't understood he was referring to what Moses stated (Deuteronomy 28)...

    I'm saying as Messiah, it is possible for us to remove the Curse they're already under.
    Yes have spent most of my life pondering what that means.
    Messianic Jews accept John, Paul, and Simon the stone, and thus are disqualified from following Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels.
    As any form of beings the reality is all about us questioning what we are; it just gets more complex code the more we advance.
    Currently many reject the religion they think they follow, thus getting them to recognize this isn't easy; unless we first get people to question they could be wrong.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #122 wizanda, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    @wizanda,

    OK. We can start on another proof if you want. Would you please demonstrate how "Esword KJV+, HOT+, GreekABP+, KJV Concordance is needed to see all the interlinking Strongs indexing system"?

    Would you please offer some examples of innovative biblical concepts that are developed from the above? If possible please provide examples which are relevant to your message for Torah Observant Jews?

    ( Note: It would be good to choose strong examples that are not easily refuted. )
     
  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    What?

    They're disqualified? They're not effected by the curse in Deut 28?

    What about Jehova Wittnesses? Are they, in your humble opinion, "rejecting God"? Do they "realize it"? Maybe they're effected by the curse?

    Do you see the flaw in logic? There is no objective reason to believe that Jewish people are cursed. Why? Because a lot non-Jews also reject God ( according to you ) and also don't realize it ( according to you ).

    Do you concede that the claim that curse in Deut 28 is currently in effect is weak at best?
     
  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,494
    Ratings:
    +1,982
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Not sure there is just one instance, we're talking about using it to show advanced workings of the Bible...

    The point is more, if explaining this is stated here, generally implying plus all the additional contexts we can see in using this software.

    As we continue understanding different issues, it gets shown regularly by many aspects.
    The whole world is affected by the Curse, when it is removed from the Jews, all those who went against it are brought into punishment by it.
    All Christian denominations building on John, Paul, Simon the stone are Anti-Christ's teachings, thus are under condemnation by contradicting the Law and prophets.
    Most of the world doesn't realize these things, only the elect have been told.
    We can show since Zechariah 11 was fulfilled with the 30 pieces of silver paid, there has been two thousand years of Moses Curse (Deuteronomy 28) on our people.

    This is one of these Bible word search times, where doing word searches on the Curse, understanding the contexts presented illuminates what was stated to happen.
    We can show the aspects of what Moses states happening. We can show where the prophets said it would happen. The only thing I find strange is the categoric denial by some, of it happening.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Yeah, I know... there won't be just one instance. I'm looking for good strong examples that demonstrate there is actually something to this whole Esword thing. Also, please try to remember, in this debate I am taking the position of a Torah Observant Jew who is skeptical of your claims.

    So.... you made a claim... and I... am trying to see if you can develop a convining argument. What's the claim?

    Claim: " "Esword KJV+, HOT+, GreekABP+, KJV Concordance is needed to see all the interlinking Strongs indexing system"

    OK.. now let's play this out...

    @wizanda, as a Messiah, is the above statement true, relevant, and can you prove it?
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    OK. That actually makes a lot of sense ( if it's true ). Thank you for explaining your POV.

    Follow-up questions: Does this mean that everyone is blind? If so, aren't you setup to fail?
     
  8. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    This is a perfect example, if you would please proceed to show me this ^^. I'll continue to take the position of a Torah Observent Jew and I'll let you know if there are any factual in inaccuracies in the chain of logic. I think it will be really helpful for you.
     
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    What I'm looking for is:

    What is your subjective judgement of the strength of claim? If you can show it ( the curse ), and when you do, will it be a strong argument?

    I propose that the best you can do is develop a weak argument. This is based on the previous theories presented in this thread. So far, all of them are weak arguments at best.

    1) They require the NT
    2) They are metaphorical, not literal
    3) There are often errors in the proofs and there are likely to be more
    4) A leap of faith is required in order to show relevance

    These are the 4 things that I am seeing in almost all of your claims. It's a pattern. We've covered the first three... we haven't gotten to the fourth yet. But, it's there. Any claim you make... I mean any claim... if it has any of these 4 elements... it will render a weak unconvincing argument.

    But.

    That doesn't rule out your work. You need to find the right audience and refine your delivery.
     
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    This is one reason why everyone is rejecting your message...

    "consumers have become more discerning, more skeptical, and less easily swayed. In order to win their business, you have to win their trust."

    ( source )

    It's not a curse. Even if your message was flawlessly delivered, people are rejecting it because over time they have become jaded as a result of numerous other false messiahs, charlatans, and snake-oil salesmen.

    Assuming Jesus was real, people didn't believe it when he was alive. Now that we live in a modern world, it would take open, easily verified miracles to make your case. And even then... even with a real miracle. People are too jaded. It wouldn't work.

    It's not a curse, it's a product of living in a modern connected world. Can you prove me wrong?
     
  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,494
    Ratings:
    +1,982
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Good question.

    As saying about the 7th Beggar, it discuss the conversation I've had over the last 13 years with him in Revelation 3:9-12, where it puts him as a Fake Jew of the Synagogue of Satan; whereas me with the new name, it says God gave me the knowledge to free others from the Trap that mankind is in before the Great Tribulation.

    According to prophecy I'm giving out free eye salve to help people see, giving them refined gold without impurities of misunderstandings (Revelation 3:18), i.e Christ back with the Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6).

    At the ending of the Curse in Deuteronomy 30:7 the Lord puts all these curses on our enemies, and on those who hate us, who persecuted us (Us = Zion being our people).
    1) The NT is proof the Tanakh is real; the idea of Rabbinic Judaism rejecting it from a lack of discernment is dumb; it was created by God to test Judah and the world, where they've currently all chosen not to sit the exam... The result is mankind is soon destroyed, and God starts reality again.

    2) The whole of reality is metaphoric none of this is real, it is an elaborate test to see who is spiritual enough to get it... The result currently is those who are not wise enough get deleted (personally don't think it is fair as the exam is too complex, which is why I came to help).

    3) There is always errors in any system, it doesn't mean the system is a failure because of odd discrepancies if the overall mathematical result is built on precept upon precept.

    4) If there is something that feels it is a leap of faith, where maths is not supplied, ask and I've most likely got additional equations to make it add up.
    Was just thinking to write the equations out, yet already know now you're deleting half the sum before looking at it; which means the chains of maths will fail automatically.

    This also summarizes why every Jew I've spoken with also fails, because they are doing the same thing, they assume they know more than the textual data.

    Moses's statements are fulfilled historically in Deuteronomy 28, we see these things over the last two thousand years, we see the 2nd temple destruction exactly as the prophets relayed, that the Messiah would come be murdered, and this would cause their own destruction.

    If I ask myself what element could be removed for me not to accept it, even if the whole book was made up, we can still show people follow the lies as prophesied, so regardless the world is under a Snare, and Curse...

    Yet what becomes mind blowing is the same criteria are found in other religious texts, about similar apocalyptic events for the same reasons.
    Judah in Zechariah 12 has forceably gone against the Curse, moved back into Israel to steal back Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:5-6), and are causing an affray which leads to WW3 (Armageddon).

    This is Deuteronomy 29:19-27 where because they think they have peace, ignoring the contexts of the prophets, God defends the righteous and removes them for being so arrogant, to ignore the instructions.

    It is a test to see who listens, if we take into account Yeshua cites the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen (Matthew 21:33-46, Mark 12:1-12, and Luke 20:9-19), which is a parable built on Isaiah 5, with him being the coming Lord, the whole text is about these passages:

    Isaiah 5:3 “Now, inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, please judge between me and my vineyard.

    Ezekiel 43:7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell among the children of Israel forever. The house of Israel will no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their prostitution, and by the dead bodies of their kings in their high places;


    God doesn't want people following old dead kings, and old laws, yet not bothering with morality, and finally God wants us to listen to him first, Yeshua was speaking so precisely in places it is beyond human capacity...

    It has taken me 15 years of study, as we needed a computer to see all the interlinking passages.
    We can not prove that the world isn't more sceptical; yet this is prophesied in multiple places (Matthew 24:12), so in Zechariah 5 which is about the Deception by the Anti-Christs after Yeshua misrepresenting him, and creating a city built on bloodshed (Habakkuk 2), where people don't see their own wickedness in this time.

    After this time God is just removing all the demons in a day, and then people will accept the Messiah, and most people know us in this time to come.

    Like there seems to be this expectation that the Messiah has to win people over; in Ezekiel 34 at the coming of the Messiah, the Lord God separates the Harvest before it.

    You see once the Messiah comes, the Lord creates an everlasting covenant with mankind, which shall never be removed again, and we become infinite beings who no longer age the same; yet we are not keeping all those who didn't pass the exam...

    As a teacher I don't mind helping people pass the exam paper; yet many of them think we need to show them the results, and then walk them into the prize ceremony at the end.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Brother, I am not doing that at all. Not even one bit. I am not deleting anything from your maths. I am looking at every verse you reference in them.

    Here's the process I'm using. OK? This is what I've been referring to as 'error checking'.

    1) Is the verse used in the argument accurately represented. If it's not, then it is disqualified.
    2) If the verse is irrelevant and does not apply to the context of the argument; it is disqualified.

    Note: Both of those involve reading the verses.

    The only time I haven't read the scriptural references you provide is if previous elements in the argument have multiple faults already.

    That's the inherent problem with a **chain** of logic where 1 verse links to another verse. Then that is applied to another verse, which links to another and another and another.... etc.

    In this model, every link in the chain must be strong to develop a convincing argument. But so far, I am only seeing weak links at best. And that is only if I ignore the math errors. But we haven't gotten to the point where the links are subjectively assessed weak or strong. We haven't gotten there yet, because... we're still working on getting accurate data.

    Do you remember where we left off in the discussion about Yeshua linking to Zecharia 11?

    You said the two were linked, and you still maintain that the two are linked. But the word Yeshua is not in the entire chapter, and the references to "Salvation" are metaphorical. So in order to show the link, you provided 12 verses which you described as being refereces to "seeing Yeshua" "becoming Yeshua". But those verses didn't work well. Only 1 verse really fit well with what you were saying. That's an accuracy problem.

    Do you know what I'm talking about?

    The original claim was: "Yeshua removed Judah and Israel for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11)". But, that's not accurate. Because after examining the verses you provided, you said it wasn't actually Yeshua, is was the concept/spirit of salvation. That means the claim is more accurately represetned as "The spirit of salvation removed Judah and Israel for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11)". Your claim didn;t match the evidence. r you revidence didn;t match the claim. Either way. It's not accurate.

    Same thing with the claim about the menorah and the pot leaf. You said it was specifically stated in the text. But that was not accurate at all.

    OK? Maybe what you are observing is that I do not value weak evidence. That is the nature of skepticism. Remember, in this debate I am taking the position of a Jew who is skeptical. You need to 'win my trust'. Like the quote said.

    The best example you've given so far is Exodus 15:2. Every single other verse mentioned relating to Zecharia 11 did not connect Yeshua to Zechariah 11. It's that simple. There was too much variance in the way the word was spelled and pronounced to make the connection. This inconsistency can be explained, and you did. But the claim needs to be adjusted, and new assumptions needed to be disclosed... and honestly. I am still not convinced. If you want to be convincing, all your data needs to strongly support your claim in the same manner and with the same impact as Exodus 15:2.

    Do you see? I'm not deleting half the sum.

    Take a look at post#78 and post#84. What you will see is... you never started at the beginning of the proof. You started in the middle. Honestly, I still don't think that you have started at the beginning.

    What's the beginning? I don;t care about "seeing Yeshua". So if you show me math with "To See + Yeshua = ....... " I don't care. It's completely irrelevant. In order to convince me, the actual beginning of the argument is no different than any other Christian mission.

    You need to convince me that I need to be saved.

    But I am not deleting half the sum; I object to that.
     
  13. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    OK. Just don't try to prove any of this. And I hope you realize that any mention of the book of Revelations and Satan will open up a whole can of worms if you are debating with a Jewish person. In fact, I would be very careful whom you share this with. It's got a creep factor of 11. :D
    OK, prove that the NT is true. The problem you will run into is inconsistency. It's inconsistent to accept part of the NT as true and part of it as fabricated.

    Besides, ff you need to bring the NT, then you have to start where every other Christian missionary starts: You have to preach the Gospel first. And that's where the leap of faith comes in. A leap of faith will ultimately be required in order to show that there's any benefit to Salvation. And that's straight up a Christian Mission.
    I am still waiting to see 1 logical chain that is valid from beginning to end. So far you have not connected anything to Yeshua outside of 1 verse in Exodus and the entire NT. I grant that the NT is about Yeshua. But so far, there is only 1 verse that is a good strong fit in The Torah.

    Try to put yourself in my shoes. In order to make your case, you need to search the Tanach for "To See Yeshua". Jews don't want to see Yeshua. Why? Because they are not Christian. It's not a fail. It's a different belief system; a different mindset. It's different. If you don't see the differences that's a huge problem, because, you won't be able to empathize with your audience. You need to empathize with "the Jews" if you want to make a convincing argument with them. You need to put yourself in their shoes. I don't think that's happening at all. { shaking head }
    OK, this is a perfect example. I asked a direct question: "Can you make a strong argument?" And this is the answer? The answer should be "yes" "no" "maybe" etc... Now. I didn't have to read past Armageddon to know that this is a weak argument if the audience is a Jewish person.

    Brother, Jews don't believe in Armageddon. That's Christianity and others...

    But that is actually lesser in import than the fact I asked a question and didn't get a direct answer. That's a big problem.

    Look, I mentioned finding the right audience? All of this, all your research and discoveries... they're great as supporting evidence for Christianity. That's why I mention Messianic Jews. All of this seems like great stuff for them in a supporting role. But there's nothing ground breaking in what you are presenting because it still needs Jesus at the end of the day. But yes, you would have to compromise on some of your principles and that won't be easy.
    I really like this. It feels softer. I think you should use this tone more often. :)
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,494
    Ratings:
    +1,982
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Sorry didn't mean to offend you, and should've been more item specific:

    Because of rejecting Esword study, there is a load of contexts I'd thought would've become more apparent, where interconnecting passages are found in Strong's indexes.
    Actually this is where you rejected the sums again...

    Yeshua in Genesis 49:18 can be seen as an expectation, Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118, and Isaiah 12:2 all state the Lord will become our Salvation (Yeshua).

    Yehoshua is the original name given by Moses to lead us into the promised land.
    Yes I get the need of consistency in the understandings, and to understand how Yehoshua is a symbolic branch takes reading the contexts; same how the salvation (H3444) of God interacted with mankind
    Christians are the naive gentiles to put off the Jews from studying their own texts (Deuteronomy 32:21).
    The NT is an exam, where parts are deliberately created to contradict other bits.... God is looking for Levites.
    What I've already shown is enough to show they're not Jews, as Yehudah means those who praise the Lord, and Yehoshua came in his name.
    The Zionist cabal are about to cause the greatest war in human history, and they don't believe their own texts.

    Thank God this is prophesied, that God is going to step in, else we would be doomed.
    Actually the thread is only partially on Yeshua, it is on El Elyon is Allah; where the Quran and Bible say the Jews have rejected the Source of reality as God, as they think Yahavah Elohim is a godhead.

    The point about Yeshua was he tried to correct them as prophesied to the God Most High, proving why the Curse was placed (Malachi 4:4-6).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Thank you for this. I really appreciate it. But regarding esword.

    I challenge you to develop a proof which I cannot re-recreate without esword. I have access to Strong's in various formats... paper and digital. The reason most Jews don't get involved with Strong's is because

    it's based on the KJV. And as we both know, the KJV changed the tenses in Isaiah in order to make chapter 53 look like it was prophecy. So, right there the KJV is a bad source for anything having to do with prophecy.

    But, I don't care, I'll look at. The point is: there is nothing magical or holy about Esword and those various downloadable Bibles.

    Go ahead. Challenge me. Give me something really hard to look up and I'll find it without Esword and I'll document the path I took to get there.

    What I've been saying all along is that if you use Esword, error check the results against something else. Something Jewish. Then abandon Esword and use the Jewish sources exclusively in the proof. No one needs to know that it all started with Esword. And the argument is much stronger if you use purely Jewish sources.

    OK. I see what you're saying.

    But maybe try to see what I'm saying.

    You're original claim did not include that it was a metahor. You made it seem like everything could be proven simply by looking literally at the words on the page. But you can't.

    Look at the chain you developed. It's weak starting at the first link.

    Here's what you offered as evidence:

    Here's the chain of logic:

    You have provided 4 biblical references. If all four accurately describe expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua ), then, you have made a valid claim. If one or more of these are inaccurate, the claim needs to be adjusted ( the errant verse(s) removed ) or else the statement is false, and the 'maths' are inaccurate. Agreed?

    Here are the 4 pieces of evidence split up individually... Then I'll test each one.
    • Genesis 49:18 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )?
    • Exodus 15:2 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )?
    • Psalms 118 ( the whole thing? ) = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )?
    • Isaiah 12:2 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )?

    Genesis 49:18:

    We already discussed this one. It's a metaphorical link. So that diminishes it's impact a bit. But I'll give it to you. It's valid, but it's a weak point.


    Exodus 15:2:

    This one is a good strong example.

    Psalms 118:

    This one has problems. I'm sorry. You're probably looking at verse 14 for the connection. But... if you look at verse 7: this Psalm could be talking about Ezra, just as much as it is talking about you. But please understand, I don't think that either of you are the subject of this Psalm. But, I should point out that if this Psalm is introduced as evidence, be prepared to defend why the Psalm is **not** talking about Ezra instead. Also following verse 7 is verse 8. which cautions the reader not to follow... umm.... people like you. So, I would avoid this Psalm. But... verse 14 has the word Yeshua in it. So I'll count it.

    Isaiah 12:2:

    OK, this one has Yeshua in it twice, so, I'll count it. But, making this into anything outside the non-literal meaning is a little weird. So it's not a strong example. It's not weak either, tho.

    Good work! You have 4 verses to work with.

    Now, here's the four verses again with their subjective assessment of strength of each piece of evidence.

    • Genesis 49:18 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )?
      • Weak - Metaphorical
    • Exodus 15:2 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )?
      • Strong
    • Psalms 118 ( the whole thing? ) = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )?
      • Mediocre - the flaws balance out gains
    • Isaiah 12:2 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )?
      • Mediocre - Yeshua doesn't fit well in context outside the literal meaning

    So you have 1 strong example, 2 mediocre examples, and 1 weak example. Just based on whether or not there is a obvious link to the the word/concept 'Yeshua'.

    Where is the connection to Zecharia? INB4... now you will need to bring a bunch more data.

    @wizanda, How are these 4 verses connected to Zecharia 11? Guaranteed you will need the NT to get there. Go ahead, prove me wrong.

    How is any of this linked to Zecharia 11?
     
  16. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    What??? Not in this thread you didn't.

    Feel free to try to convince me, tho. Here's the claim:

    "They're not Jews"

    If you've already shown it, would you please show me again? If the proof is based on the name "Yehuda" then it's easy to show that Jews praise God. 3 times a day on weekdays, 4 times on Shabbos, 5 times on Yom Kippur.
     
  17. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    This is actually great that you brought this up. It gives us a great example of a conspiracy theory, the weakest of the weak arguments.

    Please feel free to disclose the reasons you believe this ( or the reasons it's true ) and I will show you that it is accurately described as "Conspiracy Theory".

    In a lot of ways, your entire approach to this subject matter ( Judaism and religion ) is a conspiracy theory. All your claims can easily be fit into the following template:

    Each piece of evidence is a question, not a statement.

    The question that is repeatedly asked in the subtext of your evidence is: Why?

    Why is "To See Yeshua" in this verse or that verse?
    Why is "To Become Yeshua" in this verse or that verse?
    Why Am I so similar to Jesus?
    Why do I have dreams where I am on the cross?
    Why did my life follow the specific course of events that it did?
    Why is the world so messed up?
    Why wo';t anyone, not just Jews, listen to my discoveries and take them seriously?

    This is the evidence you have been providing in this thread and others for why you are right and everyone else is wrong. They're all questions. And then... at the end of every conspiracy theory is the tell-tale indicator of the weakest of the weak arguments...

    The last crucial piece of evidence is always: "Well.... What else could it be?"

    What else could it be, I must be the Messiah.
    What else could it be, Everyone must be cursed.
    What else could it be, there must be a Jewish Cabal.
    What else could it be, They're fake Jews.
    What else could it be, we are in the end times.

    Please understand, everyone does this. You're not bad or weak or flawed because of it. Everyone has conspiracy theories about something. Everyone. The difference is that most of us are able to assess the weakness of the evidence in real time, without blinking or skipping a beat.

    At this point in modern history most Jews have heard these conspiracy theories before, it's easily ID'd. It's another plausible counter theory as to why Torah Observant Jews reject pretty much the whole message you are carrying because they can smell the weakness of your arguments a mile away. They've heard all this before.

    Bring it. If this is the meat and potatoes of your message. I am prepared to discuss it.
     
  18. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,494
    Ratings:
    +1,982
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Every translation is circumspect, people always have personal biases...

    I understand the point about most Jews automatically rejecting the KJV; yet it is a method to finding aspects via the Strongs indexing system in the data regardless of translation.
    Because in Isaiah 52:10 that spirit of Salvation is put into the flesh of David... Christians miss it was David, and make an idol.

    David suffers being put to death as Yehoshua or Yeshua.

    The Jews then mourn in Zechariah 12:10 because they realize we murdered our own king; which caused the Curse to be put onto us in Zechariah 11.
    Deuteronomy 32:15 they've rejected the Rock of our Salvation (Yeshua - H3444); the Spirit of the Lord was placed into him, they didn't accept it.

    Yahavah became Yeshua - the Lord is the only one who can save, so he became our salvation.

    Yet not by human sacrifice as that is illegal; yet by repentance in his name.

    Since they've rejected King David reincarnated as Yehoshua, the Lord's prophets, the Torah, the God Most High, etc - because of other nations they've gone against the whole Bible.

    Whilst following some Babylonian Kabbalistic religion built on top, about some being called Hashem, who is a representation of Yahavah (Lord of Creation) - yet it became Yeshua (Salvation), whilst they've rejected that.

    According to the Curse, next everyone shall be removed from reality for being atheists, even though they think they are following the book (Deuteronomy 32:15-22).

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,494
    Ratings:
    +1,982
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Firstly your hypothesis of my thinking is a dangerous direction; I've been told as a child to expect certain things as a messenger, these things exist, I expect the outcomes.
    1. Because Yeshua exists in the texts as a word (H3444); making an equation looking for a context is eisegesis.
    2. The term 'to become' (H1961) is used with Moses in Exodus 3:14; which is as a memorial to our people, that the Lord shall become what it states. It said it was going to become Yeshua, and would be as the Chief Corner Stone (Psalms 118), that the Rabbinic Jews would reject.
    3. I'm not needing to model my self on someone; I'm trying to understand from amazing experiences that blow my mind, what is going on, in the most logical understanding of the data.
    4. I've only ever dreamed once of being killed by a Roman Garrison in front of my mum, there was no Cross.
    5. Because destiny has a funny way of playing the cards - if we pay attention.
    6. The world is messed up due to illogical maths everywhere, as people don't use maths for all topics; they're generally creating illogical equations, like we're in a giant insane asylum.
    7. Because we're down near Hell, and people are crazy. The whole world is systematically deceived on purpose according to the texts, people do not have the comprehension levels to see the sequential equations.
    8. Having been told as a 4-5 year old child advanced details about the Bible, and that my name is in the religions globally; plus have fulfilled multiple prophecies before reading them.
    9. The Curse is stated by Moses, and the prophets detail its interactions; as do multiple religions globally.
    10. The Zionist cabal exists within the world's banking system; it is a blatant conspiracy where everyone knows the Rothchilds own our government's funds, plus heavily financed the creation of Israel.
    11. There are multiple verses stating this across the Bible (Hosea 4:6, Hosea 5:5-6, Hosea 5:15, Isaiah 43:28, Isaiah 65:15, Jeremiah 25:18, etc)... In Revelation 3:9-12 the Fake Jew is a Rabbinic Zionist, which according to its contexts being applied are the children of the Pharisees, who muddle the Bible since Babylon.
    12. The Source of reality told me at 3, 5, 15, 21, 29, 35, certain things are going to happen, these are correlated in religious texts.
    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    10,075
    Ratings:
    +7,020
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Please note: everytime you take a name like YeHoShua and slit it up into it's constituent parts... you're translating.

    Also, Making Yeshua anything other than it's literal meaning is translating.

    That is what variable replacement is... it's literally the transitive property in math.... transitive... translation...
    OK. See what happened. I was right. In order to justify what you had said already, you needed more data. The fact the you did not include this initially is a huge problem.

    OK... here it is... the claim: " Yeshua in Genesis 49:18 can be seen as an expectation, Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118, and Isaiah 12:2 all state the Lord will become our Salvation (Yeshua)."

    Here is the initial evidence you provided:
    • Genesis 49:18 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )? - weak
    • Exodus 15:2 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )? - strong
    • Psalms 118 ( the whole thing? ) = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )? - mediocre
    • Isaiah 12:2 = expectation of Salvation ( Yeshua )? - mediocre
    Now you have added two more because you didn't connect Yeshua to Zecharia. Here they are...

    Isaiah 52:10 = Spirit of Salvation is put into Davids Flesh
    Zecharia 12:10 = Jews mourning the murder of their own king

    Hopefully you know what I'm about to do next which is look for "sprit of slavation" and "david's flesh" in Isaiah 52:10. And, I;m going to look in Zecharia 12:10 for "mudering their own king".

    The reason I am looking at those specifc items is that these ideas are all deeply christian. Spirit of Slavation? That's not something that I have ever read about. If it was anywhere is would be in Mussar. Have you heard of it. Mussar is essential spiritual self-improvement written for Jews by Jews. Basically. Anywhooo... Salvation, is totally Christian. David's flesh? Anything having to do with "flesh" of anyone is Christian. Flesh of Christ... Fleshy Israel... That's Jesus-y. So I'm guessing those elements are all missing form the verses. Just guessing.

    But let's play it out... maybe ignore the accuracy problem for now. I think it's important to show that you still don;t have all the resources collected that you are going to need in order to connect Zechaira 11 to Yeshua.

    Do you know what's missing?

    You still haven't gotten to Zecharia 11. Where's the link to that? Looks like we need to add that to the list, then it can be error checked.

    Really where this is heading is.... Matthew. I really think you are going to need the book of Matthew in order to make the connection. And once you do, then as I said you're just preaching Christianity and Esword is not at all helpful or convincing without starting at proving that Jesus actually was a Messiah. Esword doesn;t prove that at all. All it shows is that The Torah is multi-dimensional and awesome. And you don't need esword of the KJV for that. Jewish people have been plumbing the depths of Torah every single day. And honestly, the Sages do it a lot better than this. A lot better. I'm sorry to report.\

    You should look into Mussar. Have you heard of it? It's a very similar model of interlinking biblical references. And if you can follow the model of the great Rebbes as they are making their case in Mussar, then your arguments will be much more convincing to a Jewish audience.
    Is this refutation of the simple fact that Torah Observant Jews praise God daily? Would you like me to count the number of Hallelujahs in the morning, afternoon, and weekday prayer services?

    Now,,, you have made 5 claims above. Each one is weak. You haven't converted me to Christianity yet. So they;re all flawed. I can smell it like a fart in a car. Why don't you recognize that your credibility is shot at this point? Adding new claims to the mix is only digging the hole deeper.

    Honest question: What is the difference between what you are doing now and what any other Christian Missionary is doing?

    Answer: Preaching. You're not preaching.

    Why?

    Because you can't. It's against the forum rules.

    @wizanda, are you ready to concede that really what you need to make your case is to convert me to believe in Christ? But since you can't do that, isn't this ( RF ) a poor venue if you want people to accept your message? Without preaching, you are doomed to fail at developing a strong argument, right?
     
    #140 dybmh, Nov 14, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
Loading...