are the Koran the word of God????Call for dialogue

[raph]

Yes I believe that Quran is from God. You cant prove it with your mind. You have to hear the word of God with your heart. Minds dont know God, only hearts do.

I investigated every argument against the Quran years ago, and I found out that these arguments are no proof.

Btw about the sister of Aaron thing. Ancient people used to talk like that. Jesus is called Son of David. That means that He is a descendant of David, He is not the litteral son.

Using that logic, "sister of Aaron" does not mean litteral sister. It means that she descended from Aarons brethren.

 

[Sirona]

I'd have to ask a Muslim. If you're a Christian or someone of a different faith, your views maybe colored differently even by what you read. It is not because you may be right or wrong; it just means, from a believers point of view, you may not have the right point of view that a Muslim would have concerning his sacred text and his god and his point of knowledge that non-believers should ask of him not judge the validity for ourselves.

In other words, for example, I have no right to say the Quran is right or wrong. All I can say is I disagree with X and I am used to Y; however, I can see why, believer Z you would see it that way hence why you'd say is sacred. From your view not mine, I agree.

This is called cultural relativism.

Do you think things like killing those who leave the One True Religion, whipping and imprisoning people for blogging and chopping of the hands of thieves are merely expressions of "the savage's" culture which should not be judged as right or wrong?

 

[Sirona]

Yes I believe that Quran is from God. You cant prove it with your mind. You have to hear the word of God with your heart. Minds dont know God, only hearts do.

I investigated every argument against the Quran years ago, and I found out that these arguments are no proof.

Btw about the sister of Aaron thing. Ancient people used to talk like that. Jesus is called Son of David. That means that He is a descendant of David, He is not the litteral son.

Using that logic, "sister of Aaron" does not mean litteral sister. It means that she descended from Aarons brethren.

No logic needed, here.

Exodus 15:19 to 15:21:

19 For when the horses of Pharaoh with his chariots and his horsemen went into the sea, the Lord brought back the waters of the sea upon them, but the people of Israel walked on dry ground in the midst of the sea. 20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing. 21 And Miriam sang to them:“Sing to the Lord, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea.”


According to the Bible, God saves Moses and his people, including Aaron and Aaron’s actual, biological sister, who then takes a tambourine and praises the Lord. Jesus and his mother came after Moses, which is also true according the Koran.

 

[raph]

That one Mary was the litteral sister of Aaron, does not disprove that another Mary was a metaphorical sister of Aaron.

Plus the Quran only speaks about what people said to Mary the mother of Jesus. We cant know what they said to her. There is not even a logical way to falsify such a verse.

 

[Sirona]

That one Mary was the litteral sister of Aaron, does not disprove that another Mary was a metaphorical sister of Aaron.

If Mary had been a descendant of Aaron she should be called "daughter of Aaron", not sister of Aaron, right?

Plus the Quran only speaks about what people said to Mary the mother of Jesus. We cant know what they said to her. There is not even a logical way to falsify such a verse.

How about adopting the same standard to the Koran?

Here's some stuff from Christian apologetics. Maybe this brings some new arguments into the discussion: http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/mary.htm I don't care for Christianity but it maybe helps getting a clearer picture of what we're talking about.

 

[raph]

If Mary had been a descendant of Aaron she should be called "daughter of Aaron",

Is she? Even if she was a direct descendant of Aaron, there could be other reasons to call her sister of Aaron. 49:10

What should also be considered is, that God is quoting people in that verse, who dont know whats going on. They were wrong about Mary having had sex, if they were also wrong about that sister thing, who cares?

The Quran clearly says that Aaron lived in Moses times. 20:70
That Moses is not Jesus uncle in the Quran is a no brainer.

Muhammad knew that Mary was not the litteral sister of Aaron. Therefore sister is some kind of metaphor or an error made by the people who are quoted.

20:70 refutes the argument that Muhammad thought, that Aaron lived in Marys time, and she was his litteral sister.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is called cultural relativism.

Do you think things like killing those who leave the One True Religion, whipping and imprisoning people for blogging and chopping of the hands of thieves are merely expressions of "the savage's" culture which should not be judged as right or wrong?

Okay. I'll put it this way. If I converted to being a Muslim, I would Never believe God would promote any of those things. I would never do anything in the name of God because I would think of God as loving and ask for obedience to do good things. When I would pray five times a day, that would remind me to be well and obedient to God both in love and in devotion. I would treat others as I would like to be treated. When I would read the Quran, I would not read it with a human heart of violence nor will I adopt other people's views that are culturally bounded. That would not be the values and worldview of any religious text; Quran is no exception.

If you became Muslim, would you be tempted or lean towards killing others or would you find love and devotion in your god to do the opposite as your god says?

I turn it around to myself and see if I would act that way in the name of a religions God. I would not. I see nothing in the Quran (which I read) that would make me do any of those things. I guess I would have to ask the Muslims who do commit those actions and see why they see the Quran in a light that other Muslims do not.

 

[Sirona]

Okay. I'll put it this way. If I converted to being a Muslim, I would Never believe God would promote any of those things. I would never do anything in the name of God because I would think of God as loving and ask for obedience to do good things. When I would pray five times a day, that would remind me to be well and obedient to God both in love and in devotion. I would treat others as I would like to be treated. When I would read the Quran, I would not read it with a human heart of violence nor will I adopt other people's views that are culturally bounded. That would not be the values and worldview of any religious text; Quran is no exception.

If you became Muslim, would you be tempted or lean towards killing others or would you find love and devotion in your god to do the opposite as your god says?

I turn it around to myself and see if I would act that way in the name of a religions God. I would not. I see nothing in the Quran (which I read) that would make me do any of those things. I guess I would have to ask the Muslims who do commit those actions and see why they see the Quran in a light that other Muslims do not.

When I was 14 I was fascinated by the Koran. A superficial reading of it seems to confirm the Old and New Testament. I even thought about becoming a muslim. Some classmates wanted to play a nasty drinking game on me, and I staunchly refused, because "drinking alcohol is against Allah."

Have you read the Koran in Arabic? Well, I haven't. But there are Muslims who don't speak the language and just parrot the sound of the verses, because, it's the sound that is sacred and God happened to reveal himself in Arabic. So, the Koran may just be what the imam says it is. Moreover, the Koran uses flowery language which doesn't reveal its actual meaning. For example, there are "those whom your right hand possess", which are in fact slave girls. Maybe those violent verses were whitewashed. Maybe you chose to overlook them. I don't know. Moreover, the question what would you do if you were ... is pretty much pointless. I am a physically weak, handicapped straight woman who got plenty much time to read. Would I go to war if I were a strong guy and if I were into women and possibly allured by virgins in paradise? Or would I become a pacifist instead? Who can tell?

The only thing I know is that if we were actual Muslims we probably could not have the discussion because you don't go un-punished for questioning the status quo / "Allah".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When I was 14 I was fascinated by the Koran. A superficial reading of it seems to confirm the Old and New Testament. I even thought about becoming a muslim. Some classmates wanted to play a nasty drinking game on me, and I staunchly refused, because "drinking alcohol is against Allah."

Have you read the Koran in Arabic? Well, I haven't. But there are Muslims who don't speak the language and just parrot the sound of the verses, because, it's the sound that is sacred and God happened to reveal himself in Arabic. So, the Koran may just be what the imam says it is. Moreover, the Koran uses flowery language which doesn't reveal its actual meaning. For example, there are "those whom your right hand possess", which are in fact slave girls. Maybe those violent verses were whitewashed. Maybe you chose to overlook them. I don't know. Moreover, the question what would you do if you were ... is pretty much pointless. I am a physically weak, handicapped straight woman who got plenty much time to read. Would I go to war if I were a strong guy and if I were into women and possibly allured by virgins in paradise? Or would I become a pacifist instead? Who can tell?

The only thing I know is that if we were actual Muslims we probably could not have the discussion because you don't go un-punished for questioning the status quo / "Allah".

Im only an outsider looking in and dont have those same experiences. What I do know is I am and live in America and if I were to convert to Muslim I wouldnt live in places like Dubai where women could or would get arrested for not covering up.

Maybe thats just if I read the Quran it would not be a negative light. Just like the bible, it has violence and promotes it as well as it does implied. If my relationship with God was that important, I would be like most christians, side look the bad and live the good. Id do the same for the Quran. Not because the Quran says anything bas anymore than scripturw. More where Im from we dont have those stipulations. Id really have to talk to a Muslim (who speaks Arabic) to see how the Quran affects my cultural norms.

Until then, I can only take your word as well as others. I cant decide who is wrong only the logicity (if thats a word) of your opinions and experiences.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

there are "those whom your right hand possess", which are in fact slave girls. Maybe those violent verses were whitewashed. Maybe you chose to overlook them. I don't know.

The women. 3 from verse to verse 3. If you fear not justly with the orphans in Vankhawwa what women of your choice, two or three, or four, the interpretation of the meaning or proprietary minimum that should not مثنى وثلاث ورباع -------او ما ملكت ايمانكم

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Okay. I'll put it this way. If I converted to being a Muslim, I would Never believe God would promote any of those things. I would never do anything in the name of God because I would think of God as loving and ask for obedience to do good things. When I would pray five times a day, that would remind me to be well and obedient to God both in love and in devotion. I would treat others as I would like to be treated. When I would read the Quran, I would not read it with a human heart of violence nor will I adopt other people's views that are culturally bounded. That would not be the values and worldview of any religious text; Quran is no exception.

If you became Muslim, would you be tempted or lean towards killing others or would you find love and devotion in your god to do the opposite as your god says?

I turn it around to myself and see if I would act that way in the name of a religions God. I would not. I see nothing in the Quran (which I read) that would make me do any of those things. I guess I would have to ask the Muslims who do commit those actions and see why they see the Quran in a light that other Muslims do not.

Five times a day does not mean he is human Saleh
What is important is teaching
What is important is the heart
Christ told us if you want to pray Enter the room and closed the door and prayed to God
He told us to not be the like the hypocrites pray in the synagogues and black Colbhm
Yes Prayer does not mean you are in favor of a man
But in Islam, prayer is a social and religious hypocrisy

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Is she? Even if she was a direct descendant of Aaron, there could be other reasons to call her sister of Aaron. 49:10

What should also be considered is, that God is quoting people in that verse, who dont know whats going on. They were wrong about Mary having had sex, if they were also wrong about that sister thing, who cares?

The Quran clearly says that Aaron lived in Moses times. 20:70
That Moses is not Jesus uncle in the Quran is a no brainer.

Muhammad knew that Mary was not the litteral sister of Aaron. Therefore sister is some kind of metaphor or an error made by the people who are quoted.

20:70 refutes the argument that Muhammad thought, that Aaron lived in Marys time, and she was his litteral sister.

Interpretation of the Koran can not be a way of metaphor and metaphor
Because if I said these words, the incarnation of God in human form also permissible
Because God in the Koran convicted him and two feet also has the throne
So metaphor in the Koran are not acceptable

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

are you a Muslim?

I'm christian
But I studied Islamic law
Because it is the most important of the study of law curricula in Arab and Islamic countries
And also my experience to live with Muslims

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I guess I would have to ask a Muslim.
Muslims will not give you accurate answer because he implicitly followed the pious
He wants and wishes that offers you Asalamqhobea
After Tsagtin the trap door may be closed, you will not be able to return

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Five times a day does not mean he is human Saleh
What is important is teaching
What is important is the heart
Christ told us if you want to pray Enter the room and closed the door and prayed to God
He told us to not be the like the hypocrites pray in the synagogues and black Colbhm
Yes Prayer does not mean you are in favor of a man
But in Islam, prayer is a social and religious hypocrisy

That is so sad to hear. The Quran is the Word of the Creator just as any other abrahamic sacred text.

I dont isolate one text because my religious views. I know all three "peoples view" of God disagree. That does not change that in Abrahamic faith there is only One Creator.

All people who wrote in his name, what they wrote are not scribble. These inspired writings Are the words (using that instead of Word/Christ) of God. It just depends on who believes in wich sacred text in which they choose to follow.

Prayer five times a day is Not an isolated act of devotion. Thats like my calling all christians who pray false. Christians (etc) are not exempt from respect. That goes the same for every person every belief.

Please read this in full.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

That is so sad to hear. The Quran is the Word of the Creator just as any other abrahamic sacred text.

I dont isolate one text because my religious views. I know all three "peoples view" of God disagree. That does not change that in Abrahamic faith there is only One Creator.

All people who wrote in his name, what they wrote are not scribble. These inspired writings Are the words (using that instead of Word/Christ) of God. It just depends on who believes in wich sacred text in which they choose to follow.

Prayer five times a day is Not an isolated act of devotion. Thats like my calling all christians who pray false. Christians (etc) are not exempt from respect. That goes the same for every person every belief.

Please read this in full.

First five --alslwat outside our theme this
Prayer and its own way is not to prove it correct religion guide
Second --Abrahamic religions term is incorrect

Because Ibrahim did not announce any religion
But Ibrahim said one idea when he came out of the land of the Chaldeans, a ziggurat of Ur
Thirdly -
Ibrahim and Osama and the establishment of a new national
These are the sons of Israel
Only the children of Israel belong to the Ibrahimeya
This strange term Abrahamic religions make the world mixes between right and wrong
Fourthly -
We do not Almssehieddin Ntnumei to Abraham
Only belong to him in the idea

And the Muslims and Muhammad, they do not belong to Ibrahim
From both sides
National and spiritual
Because the idea of Islam are incompatible with the orientations of Ibrahim radically

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

The objective now completed that the Quran is not the word of God
In the words of the Koran Satan
Satan has been delivered to Muhammad and announced to his followers, but retracted and announced that it canceled immediately
Is Satan cast words to Muhammad
How enable,
And they sent a messenger to you nor a prophet unless he wished the devil threw in his wish Vinsch what God cast Satan, then God governs His signs, and Allah is Knowing, Wise, to make what Satan throws a temptation for those in whose hearts is a disease} Al-Hajj verse 52-53
s Christianity or Judaism in such a speech?
Is Satan intervention in the words of Jesus ??
Or words of Moses or Isaiah or Nahum ??
Really strange words prove that he is not the Word of God
And when Allah revealed An-Najm said: (Have you thought about Lat and Uzza and Manat the other third? Quantum male has a female?) Then threw the devil when he mentioned the words of God tyrants, he said: They and their Algranic Ali, though Chweathn Lehigh which leads expect.
The copying what God gave Satan, God governs His signs, and save it from lie, and said: (And We sent a messenger to you nor a prophet unless he wished the devil threw in his wish, Vinsch what God cast Satan. Then God governs verses. Allah is Knower, Wise. To make what the devil cast a temptation for those in whose hearts is a disease and cruel hearts. if oppressors for in a schism far)
An-Najm verse 19 and 20
And Lat and Uzza and other third Manat
Ali though they Algranic leads expect to Chweathn

 

[Unveiled Artist]

First five --alslwat outside our theme this
Prayer and its own way is not to prove it correct religion guide
Second --Abrahamic religions term is incorrect

Because Ibrahim did not announce any religion
But Ibrahim said one idea when he came out of the land of the Chaldeans, a ziggurat of Ur
Thirdly -
Ibrahim and Osama and the establishment of a new national
These are the sons of Israel
Only the children of Israel belong to the Ibrahimeya
This strange term Abrahamic religions make the world mixes between right and wrong
Fourthly -
We do not Almssehieddin Ntnumei to Abraham
Only belong to him in the idea

And the Muslims and Muhammad, they do not belong to Ibrahim
From both sides
National and spiritual
Because the idea of Islam are incompatible with the orientations of Ibrahim radically

A lot of what you said, I cannot pronounce to understand. Are you Muslim? Who decided these three religions fall under the same umbrella of the God of Abraham?

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Animal eat verse of the Koran which lost to today and this verse is great suckling has been written about in the books of the Old Muslims
But they disagree on the validity of these verses lost
Narrated by Muhammad ibn Ishaq, and pronunciation: (I've dropped a verse of stoning, Big Ten and feedings, was in the paper under a bed in my house, and when he complained to the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him Glna his command, entered Doibh us Vokltha)
Narrated by Imam Ahmad in "Missned" (43/343), and Ibn Majah in "Sunan" (No. / 1944) and pronunciation: (When he died, the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his death Glna domestic income Voklha

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Question.

The Quran is not the Word of God according to who?

This answer has to be objective. Each religion will promote themselves.