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Featured Are the gospels reliable historical documents? // YES

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by leroy, Jan 28, 2021.

  1. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    The reason I would argue that the Gospels are reliable from a historical point of view is because I belive that points 1,2 and 3 are ture:

    1 the authors intended to report what actually happened

    2 The authors had access to reliable sources.

    3 So if an author tries to be accurate and has reliable sources it follows (inductively) that his work is reliable.

    if you disagree with ether 1,2 or 3 please let me know why you disagree.




    1 the authors intended to report what actually happened

    Given the literary genera of the text (Greco roman biography) and the fact that the gosspels are fool of embarrassing details* it seems probable that point 1 is true

    2 The authors had access to reliable sources.

    Given that most of the political, historical, demographic and geographical details** in the gospels are accurate … it seems probable that the authors had access to good sources, otherwise they would have not known those details.

    ---

    *Embarrassing details: Jesus had a humiliating death, Peter denied Jesus, The empty tomb was discovered by woman, he was buried in the tomb of a Jewish Sanhedrin, Jesus had limited knowledge, etc. all these details represented obstacles for the early Christians, (things would have been easier without those embarrassing details)

    ** There really was a Pilate, there really was a Caiphas, the ratio of common names vs uncommon names are consistent, there really was a Jewish Sanhedrin that had some power and influence over the romans, they villages, towns cities etc. really excisted…………onlyh someone who was there or who had acces to reliable source could have known all these.
     
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  2. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    There is nothing to argue with here.

    I think the problem is, people want 100% corroboration for everything that happened as if there was a video recording in those days for historical verification

    Yet, as one person wrote,

    John 21:25
    And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
     
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  3. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Sorry but your logic is a huge non sequitur and your claims are refuted by some of the clear errors if not outright falsehoods in the gospels.
     
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  4. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    It is faith.
    Thus, it has nothing to do with logic.
     
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  5. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    Which outright falsehoods?
     
  6. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Then by that logic all religious texts - from the Koran to the Gita - are true.

    The gospels don't even agree what Jesus' final words were.
     
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  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Luke's Nativity tale for example. Any student of the Bible should know that at the very least.
     
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  8. Batya

    Batya Always Forward

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    I was just wanting you to give some examples if you were going to claim that, not intending to imply I had never heard anyone say there were falsehoods before. Why do you say his story was false, at least picking out his in particular?
     
  9. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Human memory is notoriously unreliable, especially when it comes to details. Scientists have found that prompting an eyewitness to remember more can generate details that are outright false but that feel just as correct to the witness as actual memories
    Your Memory Is Unreliable, And It’s About to Get Worse.
     
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  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    That's as sad as it is silly/

    You pretend to know who authored the gospels. You don't.

    Not knowing the authors, you know even less about their sources.

    3a is a bogus claim.
    3b is a bogus claim.
    3c is laughable irrespective of its worthless premise,
    i.e., even an honest effort drawing upon reliable sources can produce unreliable results.​
     
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  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    No known sources nor witnesses datable to the life of Christ. No known gospels potentially datable before 50 AD. All the gospels are known to edited, redacted and compiled after 50 AD.
     
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  12. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    And what were the sources for new testament ideas? I am about to finish volume one of Letters of a Stoic, and strangely, Seneca sometimes puts forth parallel ideas to those found in Jesus's sayings. Yet, Seneca speaks of gods , and often says he doesn't think an afterlife exists. I posit that there was a foundation of socio-cultural philosophical material circulating at time , as if they were social media type memes.
     
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  13. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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  14. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I am rather surprised that you do not know this. Odds are that Jesus of Nazareth was born in Nazareth. Luke's story fails on several levels. First off the idea of people returning to their ancestral homes for a census is ridiculous. In fact the story itself tells you what it was ridiculous. The point of the census was to tax people appropriately . When one takes that sort of census one counts people where they live and work, not where they came from. Second the date of the census was wrong. Romans kept very good records of that and the date of the census of Quirinius is well known. It was 6 CE, but Jesus was supposedly born before Herod the Great died, which would put his birth about 4 BCE. Modern scholars recognize that this story just does not make sense.

    Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia.
     
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  15. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    leroy," 1 the authors intended to report what actually happened"

    In the four Gospels the main event which has been told is Crucifixion of Jesus*, but none of the Gospels writers was an eyewitness of this event, please. Right friend, please?

    I understand instead of reading the Gospels, which Jesus never read from, Instead the Christians are to follow Jesus, and hence they are to read from the Book that Jesus used to read from and he acted accordingly. Right friend, please?

    Regards
    _________
    * and the main beliefs of Pauline Christianity are based on this event.
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The gospels evolved from likely a shorter written biography and oral stories of Jesus, and yes as in all ancient religions 'a foundation of socio-cultural philosophical material circulating at time , as if they were social media type memes.'

    The early known gospels show additions and editing in the different documents.
     
    #16 shunyadragon, Jan 28, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2021
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  17. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    You should read some Bart Ehrman.
     
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  18. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    let me guess...... you will just assert over and over again that the claims are refuted without providing any justification.
     
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  19. leroy

    leroy Well-Known Member

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    Would you cite which other religious text that has points 1 and 2?
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Projection, again. I noticed a huge flaw in the OP. So have others. I no longer bother explaining your errors to you since you never acknowledge them. I will simply point them out.
     
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