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Are the Blessed Virgin Mary and The Church one in the same?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Jonathan Bailey, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. Jonathan Bailey

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    The Lord Jesus Christ on the Cross took Mary, His Mother as His Bride. Mary represents the beginning of the Church according to a preaching by American Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen




    It seems to me whenever the Catholics title a church as "Our Lady" they are making a reference to both Mary, the Mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Church as one in the same entity.



    Another question: Are the Pope and God "one in the same"? This article states that Pius V made such proclamation.

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2017/11/pope-st-pius-v-claimed-god-say-anti-catholics.html
     
  2. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    As a Christian (on the Protestant side) Mary does not represent the beginning of the church (will all due respect to Sheen), never took Mary as his Bride, and God and the Pope are not the one in the same. The Pope needed Jesus as his Savior just like everybody else.
     
  3. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    I think you missed the point made in the second link
     
  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Telescopic Toes
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    Most Christians pray "Our Father in heaven" to indicate Christians inherit from a common father. A virgin has offspring that are guaranteed to come from a particular donor, and that affects inheritance. When Christians pray "Our Father" it instantly represents we all are siblings, recognized by that Father. That is represented in the symbolism of the Virgin mother of Christ. Technically speaking its not Mary that is the church but Jesus, but this is not a technical matter. I suggest Mary represents Christ as does Jesus; but Mary is the principle by which we inherit from the Father.

    In Judaism's books sometimes cities such as Jerusalem are referred to as virgins: Zion, Sidon, Babylon. Also 'My People' are referred to as the virgin daughter of the LORD. The symbol of Mary has a lot in common with these references. She's a virgin, and she is the mother of Jesus.
    I also suspect Mary is a symbol but not for the visible church. If Eve is called the mother of all of the living, then what is Mary?

    I detect a note of dislike for the Roman Catholic church in your post. Its understandable, as there have been some very bad popes in the stack and nasty governments. I don't think anybody disagrees about that. Don't forget that Roman Catholics pray "Our Father in heaven" just as you do and are Jesus brothers along with anyone who does the will of God. How though can Jesus brothers also be part of his body which Paul says is the church? Its because symbols are used in the gospels to represent things. The church is Jesus body, and all Christians are Jesus brothers. Mary is that principle which guarantees all Christians inherit from one father + despite our differences.
     
  5. Cleary

    Cleary God is sovereign and in control <><

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    Its understandable, as there have been some very bad popes in the stack and nasty governments

    How can there be 'bad popes' if the office of 'pope' is actually 'Christ on earth' < is this so-called 'church that Jesus built' an anti-Biblical church ?
     
  6. MJFlores

    MJFlores John 15:19

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    Told you how they have mixed up doctrines.
     
  7. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    and in the catholic schools of my upbringing....

    Peter was the first pope
     
  8. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    OK... Sorry... I thought it was simply the link to support what was said.

    However:

    "He that reigneth on high, to whom is given all power in heaven and earth, has committed one holy Catholic and apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, to one alone upon earth, namely to Peter, the first of the apostles, and to Peter’s successor, the pope of Rome, to be by him governed in fullness of power.'

    We would still disagree with this statement.
     
  9. Cleary

    Cleary God is sovereign and in control <><

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    Catholic and apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation < typical policy of a cult

    We would disagree with that statement indeed ...
    Roman Catholicism and Christianity are not the same thing
     
    #9 Cleary, Apr 24, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2019
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Mary was Jesus' mother, thus since Jesus is believed to be of the essence of God, Mary is at least symbolically the "Mother of God", therefore Mary is the "Mother of the Church", but, again, only in a symbolic sense. Such as when Jesus tells the apostle John "Take thee thy mother" [paraphrased] in reference to Mary.

    No, they are not at all viewed as being the same.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The Pope only represents Christ in the matter of his position and his job as a communicator of the faith.

    BTW, the "anti-Biblical church" accusation is totally off the mark as at every mass there are no less than three scriptures read and always four on Sundays.
     
  12. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Only for those who understand why this is the teaching but yet reject it. However, recent popes have backed off on that, especially Pope Francis, plus I don't accept it either, which is my right to discern and dissent as a Catholic.
     
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