Are spelling and grammar lost arts?

[jml03]

My youngest nephew told me he liked Harry Potter, so I was buying him each book as it came out. He finally told me, "I just watch the movies; I don't read books. But Mom reads the books."

too funny!

 

[Dunemeister]

There are prescriptive grammars out there. These try to say that thus-and-so is "correct" or "incorrect." I prefer to use a descriptive grammar: this is what people say and how they say it and when they do so they generally mean to communicate thus-and-so.

Besides, whose version of English is correct? Most of the world who uses English does so in the context of international English. What makes for successful communication there is much different from what does so among native users of English (of whatever community).

 

[Peacewise]

I reckon if there is a choice between the spelling of the word we should just pick the shorter one, time is such a premium, dropping the 'e' in judgment sounds smart to me.
As for through being spelt thru, I'm keen for that, likewise, enough and enuf. The meaning doesn't change, people still understand what is being conveyed what's the big frigging deal?

Correctness, smeckness, spelling is after all another one of the tools by which the highly educated can look down their noses at others.

Groan, oh my dear, he spelt enough, enuf. Must have gone to school in the public system, I shall not give him employment.
As Alan from two and a half men, or as I prefer to call it, 2.5 men, would say... "Blow it out your arse!"

 

[Skwim]

Groan, oh my dear, he spelt enough, enuf. Must have gone to school in the public system, I shall not give him employment.
As Alan from two and a half men, or as I prefer to call it, 2.5 men, would say... "Blow it out your arse!"

Said the poor slob who lost the job opportunity to snot-nosed kid who took the time to use proper English.

 

[Smoke]

There are prescriptive grammars out there. These try to say that thus-and-so is "correct" or "incorrect." I prefer to use a descriptive grammar: this is what people say and how they say it and when they do so they generally mean to communicate thus-and-so.

"One should not imitate those ***** who ask the Latin language how German should be spoken; but should ask the mother in her home, the children in the gutters, the common man at the fair, and watch their big mouths as they speak, and do accordingly." (Martin Luther)​

I prefer descriptive grammar to a point. On the other hand, English is kind of the lingua franca of the world, and there needs to be some level of standardization if we want to keep it that way. What really bothers me about prescriptive grammar is that much of it is artificial and arbitrary, and even based on Latin instead of English.

What we need is enough prescriptive grammar to teach students the difference between principle and principal and the basic conjugations of verbs -- sink/sank/sunk, think/thought/thought -- but we can drop a lot of artificial rules.

If you ask me, the biggest problem in English isn't poor grammar, it's the fatal influence of education. After we've spent enough time in school and read enough academic, business, or legal writing, we tend to write worse English than when we started. I catch myself doing it, even though I hate it.

Me and Carol is going to the movies is bad. Having considered the available options, it was clear that on the whole Carol and myself were desirous of having the opportunity to enjoy an evening of cinematic entertainment, and it has therefore been decided that we will, barring complications, proceed at the first available opportunity to see a movie is worse.

 

[Smoke]

Groan, oh my dear, he spelt enough, enuf. Must have gone to school in the public system, I shall not give him employment.

If somebody wrote enuf on his resume, I probably wouldn't hire him, and I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way. Spelling reformers, like all reformers, must be prepared to make sacrifices in the struggle.

 

[Kathryn]

I reckon if there is a choice between the spelling of the word we should just pick the shorter one, time is such a premium, dropping the 'e' in judgment sounds smart to me.
As for through being spelt thru, I'm keen for that, likewise, enough and enuf. The meaning doesn't change, people still understand what is being conveyed what's the big frigging deal?

Correctness, smeckness, spelling is after all another one of the tools by which the highly educated can look down their noses at others.

Groan, oh my dear, he spelt enough, enuf. Must have gone to school in the public system, I shall not give him employment.
As Alan from two and a half men, or as I prefer to call it, 2.5 men, would say... "Blow it out your arse!"

So ur a pruponent uv funetic speling? wut abowt wurds like wale and wale. wut about to, to, and to? wut about thru and thru? rane and rane? o u dont no wut im tokking about? ware du u draw thu line with that and wy?

do we get to thro out punkuashun and sentints strukture to wy or wy not sorry but i think some rools of gramer are importunt but if yu dont want to conform thats ok with me i just wont hire yu hope u dont mind

 

[Revoltingest]

So ur a pruponent uv funetic speling? wut abowt wurds like wale and wale. wut about to, to, and to? wut about thru and thru? rane and rane? o u dont no wut im tokking about? ware du u draw thu line with that and wy?

do we get to thro out punkuashun and sentints strukture to wy or wy not sorry but i think some rools of gramer are importunt but if yu dont want to conform thats ok with me i just wont hire yu hope u dont mind

My rules:
Don't use too many goofy words, cuz that confuses the unaccustomed reader.
Use words which save space, eg, cuz for because, thru for through, enuf for enough.
Avoid words which look wrong, eg, b4 for before.
Use words which offend fundies, eg, Xtian for Christian. (I enjoy how some hate this so much, despite having perfectly legit Greek origins.)

Caution:
My rules might change without notice.

 

[Magic Man]

Me and Carol is going to the movies is bad. Having considered the available options, it was clear that on the whole Carol and myself were desirous of having the opportunity to enjoy an evening of cinematic entertainment, and it has therefore been decided that we will, barring complications, proceed at the first available opportunity to see a movie is worse.

That's another bad one, the use of "myself". Again, it's one of those things people do to try to sound more educated or smarter, but they end up sounding worse.

One of my biggest pet peeves, which I forgot about yesterday, is misuse of "literally". The problem with the way people misuse it is that it leaves no word to actually mean when you don't mean something metaphorically.

Apparently, Kristen Stewart from the Twilight movies is notorious for this. She has quotes like:

“Yeah, and just like everything in our movie, it’s such a heightened version of reality. It’s like, people don’t just break up [in the "Twilight" films] — they break up and it literally kills you.”

“I get to do something that literally if I didn’t get to do, I would implode,” Stewart says of acting.

The entire point of the word is to differentiate between when you mean "I'd be so miserable I'd feel like I was imploding" and "My body would actually, physically cave in on itself".

 

[Smoke]

“Yeah, and just like everything in our movie, it’s such a heightened version of reality. It’s like, people don’t just break up [in the "Twilight" films] — they break up and it literally kills you.”

Well, that's a movie you don't want to see.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, that's a movie you don't want to see.

Ha, yeah. Not that I needed more reason to not see those movies.

 

[Dunemeister]

I prefer descriptive grammar to a point. On the other hand, English is kind of the lingua franca of the world, and there needs to be some level of standardization if we want to keep it that way. What really bothers me about prescriptive grammar is that much of it is artificial and arbitrary, and even based on Latin instead of English.

If English is a lingua franca, then who gets to standardize the language? We in America? Those in England? Why not the Australians? Why not the South Africans? Why not the Jamaicans? Why not the Phillipinos? None of these groups "owns" English. Besides, as a lingua franca, the international community now sets the "standards".

As for the artificiality and arbitrariness of prescriptive grammars, that's true of all languages. And it's not based on Latin at all. All we owe to Latin are a number of formal words and our alphabet. The grammar itself is gloriously English.

What we need is enough prescriptive grammar to teach students the difference between principle and principal and the basic conjugations of verbs -- sink/sank/sunk, think/thought/thought -- but we can drop a lot of artificial rules.

Perhaps verb conjugation is artificial. Urban inner city English has mostly abandoned it in places.

If you ask me, the biggest problem in English isn't poor grammar, it's the fatal influence of education. After we've spent enough time in school and read enough academic, business, or legal writing, we tend to write worse English than when we started. I catch myself doing it, even though I hate it.

I highly doubt it.

Me and Carol is going to the movies is bad. Having considered the available options, it was clear that on the whole Carol and myself were desirous of having the opportunity to enjoy an evening of cinematic entertainment, and it has therefore been decided that we will, barring complications, proceed at the first available opportunity to see a movie is worse.

Niether of these is bad in a particular context. The first is fine when spoken among certain sub-groups of English speakers, particularly urban inner city English. The last is fine when spoken in jest as you've done or when there is need for pomposity. You see? There is almost never "wrong". When someone asks "Is this right?" the answer is usually "sometimes" or "that depends."

 

[Magic Man]

As for the artificiality and arbitrariness of prescriptive grammars, that's true of all languages. And it's not based on Latin at all. All we owe to Latin are a number of formal words and our alphabet. The grammar itself is gloriously English.

No, some of our rules come from Latin. For instance, "It is I" is from Latin directly. In French, the equivalent of "It is me" is correct because they don't use the Latin rule.

When someone asks "Is this right?" the answer is usually "sometimes" or "that depends."

No, the answer is "No, that is wrong". When using it for humor or other purposes, you're using it because it's wrong. I wrote an e-mail to my wife yesterday saying "I literally want to strangle her" for humorous effect because it's wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, some of our rules come from Latin. For instance, "It is I" is from Latin directly. In French, the equivalent of "It is me" is correct because they don't use the Latin rule.

I think that rule is dying. "It is I" sounds pompous, pedantic & strange.
Most people prefer "me" as a direct object of "is".

 

[Magic Man]

I think that rule is dying. "It is I" sounds pompous, pedantic & strange.
Most people prefer "me" as a direct object of "is".

I'm not sure the rule is dying. People are ignoring it more and more, for sure.

EDIT: But then my problem is people don't say "Who is him?" to be consistent.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not sure the rule is dying. People are ignoring it more and more, for sure.

That is the symptom of the rule dying.

EDIT: But then my problem is people don't say "Who is him?" to be consistent.

Language is not always consistent.
One rule does trump all others though:
If a construction sounds really odd, don't say it.

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

OK, I've held off on this topic for a long time, but I just can't take it anymore!

(And before I go any further, let me give this disclaimer - I can and do make spelling and grammar mistakes myself from time to time, so if you're thinking of scouring my posts and copying and pasting all my errors as some sort of refute to this OP, don't bother!)

Is it just me, or does it seem to others that the ability to write well is becoming eroded in modern society?

I have a son who is dyslexic, but because his IQ is over 130, his vocabulary skills are excellent. This combo of characteristics results in his ability to express himself well verbally, but very poorly when it comes to the written word.

Because I have seen him struggle so much with spelling over the years, I am sensitive to some peoples' struggle with the written word and I usually don't point out their errors on this forum.

But, MY GOSH! I know we're not writing theses here, but what I see when it comes to writing skills (or the lack thereof) here, and in "real life," is becoming more and more distressing with each passing year!

Are good writing, spelling, and punctuation skills becoming more obsolete? Is the bar being lowered by our education systems, employers, or other factors?

Your opinions, please!

This is a topic I feel strongly about, because I left high school with a plan to eventually finish a masters degree in composition and rhetoric. My honors and AP english teachers in high school made me realize how much I love the subject. On an opposite note, math is the bane of my existence. I have seen people worse off with it than I am, but I have it pretty bad. It actually makes me physically upset because it is so difficult for me to grasp. All the other subjects I can hold my own with.

So, I knew that an Associates degree was a glorified trip back through high school. I am finished except for retaking one more math class. I have 62 credit hours I think. I've taken a ridiculous amount of classes. You know how many have been english? Four. The only reason I have four is because I elected to take one that wasn't required. This angers me, but I dealt with it because I understood that when you get into your bachelors, you were more focused on your major.

Well apparently not anymore. I did want to attend The University of Florida, until I looked at their curriculum.

"Recommended semester plan
Students are expected to complete the writing and math requirement while in the process of taking the courses below. Students are also expected to complete the general education international (GE-N) and diversity (GE-D) requirements concurrently with another general education requirement (typically, GE-C, H or S).
Semester 1 Credits
Biological Science (GE-B) 3
Composition (GE-C, WR) 3
Foreign language 4-5
Social and Behavioral Sciences (GE-S) 3
Total 13-14
Semester 2 Credits
2000-level English department survey of literature course (GE-H) 3
Composition (if needed) 3
Foreign language 3-5
Humanities (GE-H) 3
Mathematics (GE-M) 3
Total 15-17
Semester 3 Credits
2000-level English department survey of literature (GE-H) 3
Biological Science (GE-B) 3
Foreign language (if 4-3-3 language option), elective or prerequisite 3
Mathematics (GE-M) 3
Social and Behavioral Sciences (GE-S) 3
Total 15
Semester 4 Credits
3000/4000-level English course from model (see English adviser) 3
Electives 4-1
Humanities (GE-H) 3
Physical Science (GE-P) 3
Science laboratory (GE-P or GE-B) 1
Social and Behavioral Sciences (GE-S) 3
Total 17-14
Semester 5 Credits
Two 3000/4000-level English courses from model (see English adviser) 6
Electives 6
Physical Science (GE-P) 3
Total 15
Semester 6 Credits
Three 3000/4000-level English courses from model (see English adviser) 9
Electives 6
Total 15
Semester 7 Credits
Two 3000/4000-level English courses from model (see English adviser) 6
Electives (3000 level or above, not in major) 9
Total 15
Semester 8 Credits
Two 3000/4000-level English courses from model (see English adviser) 6
Electives (3000 level or above, not in major)"


From Office of the University Registrar

Now if I am MAJORING in english, and this is the focus that I get, just imagine the focus that other majors get in the subject. Oh wait wait, let's think non-sensical for a second... maybe the math major curriculums are actually the ones riddled with english classes! :sarcastic

But wait! To move forward with a masters degree in english you must first have translating competency in a foreign language! :areyoucra

I'm totally ticked off. I was more proficient in the subject I wish to specialize in BEFORE I got into college, and it doesn't seem like it is going to get any better.

So yes I think the ability to write well is becoming eroded in modern society. If you don't teach and practice on your own, you will just end up being able to write and speak two languages poorly, rather than being educated well in your own, and that is if you pursue a college degree.

 

[Dunemeister]

No, some of our rules come from Latin. For instance, "It is I" is from Latin directly. In French, the equivalent of "It is me" is correct because they don't use the Latin rule.

The Latin influences some of our formalised lexical items but "it is me" has always been acceptable in informal English.

No, the answer is "No, that is wrong". When using it for humor or other purposes, you're using it because it's wrong. I wrote an e-mail to my wife yesterday saying "I literally want to strangle her" for humorous effect because it's wrong.

No, you're using it because it's atypical. Big difference.

 

[Magic Man]

That is the symptom of the rule dying.

I'd say it's more the symptom of people ignoring the rule. We still have the rule that you shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition, but it's one no one cares about.

Language is not always consistent.

One rule does trump all others though:
If a construction sounds really odd, don't say it.[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure for you and some others, that rule trumps everything. However, saying "It's I" doesn't sound odd to me because it's the way it's supposed to be.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm totally ticked off. I was more proficient in the subject I wish to specialize in BEFORE I got into college, and it doesn't seem like it is going to get any better.

It sounded to me like that was a suggested plan, and that it was for people who don't have an Associate's already. Do they have a different plan for those with Associate's degrees? I would assume that if you already have that, that takes care of a lot of the general education requirements. For my BA, I think I ended up with 60-some credits in Linguistics (my major) out of the 120 total.