Are some more protective of their concept of Hell than Heaven?

[David1967]

In various discussions I have had over the years with people about their concepts of Heaven and Hell I have noticed something interesting. Keep in mind that most of those I have had this discussion with are from a more Christian fundamentalist background.
When discussing concepts of Heaven there was much room for friendly discussion. Some had the streets of gold in the clouds view. Some had an opinion that Heaven would be a perfect world with beautiful mountains sparkling rivers and no sadness or death. Many different views from different people. No contention among any of them on these differing thoughts of a heavenly paradise. But when I brought up the subject of whether or not there was fire in hell, all of a sudden the mood changed to defensive. Has anyone else had this experience where people seemed to be more protective of their concept of Hell than Heaven? If so why do you think this is so?

 

[Thana]

In various discussions I have had over the years with people about their concepts of Heaven and Hell I have noticed something interesting. Keep in mind that most of those I have had this discussion with are from a more Christian fundamentalist background.
When discussing concepts of Heaven there was much room for friendly discussion. Some had the streets of gold in the clouds view. Some had an opinion that Heaven would be a perfect world with beautiful mountains sparkling rivers and no sadness or death. Many different views from different people. No contention among any of them on these differing thoughts of a heavenly paradise. But when I brought up the subject of whether or not there was fire in hell, all of a sudden the mood changed to defensive. Has anyone else had this experience where people seemed to be more protective of their concept of Hell than Heaven? If so why do you think this is so?

It's not about the concept itself, It's just that the people who have it are constantly attacked and judged for believing in it.
Personally, I wouldn't blame them for immediately getting defensive.

 

[David1967]

It's not about the concept itself, It's just that the people who have it are constantly attacked and judged for believing in it.
Personally, I wouldn't blame them for immediately getting defensive.

It would certainly depend on the tone of the conversation.

 

[Akivah]

In various discussions I have had over the years with people about their concepts of Heaven and Hell I have noticed something interesting. Keep in mind that most of those I have had this discussion with are from a more Christian fundamentalist background.
When discussing concepts of Heaven there was much room for friendly discussion. Some had the streets of gold in the clouds view. Some had an opinion that Heaven would be a perfect world with beautiful mountains sparkling rivers and no sadness or death. Many different views from different people. No contention among any of them on these differing thoughts of a heavenly paradise. But when I brought up the subject of whether or not there was fire in hell, all of a sudden the mood changed to defensive. Has anyone else had this experience where people seemed to be more protective of their concept of Hell than Heaven? If so why do you think this is so?

Probably because the Muslims & Christians that subscribe to a belief in Hell, also use it as a reason that a person should believe as they do. That is, I've never heard any religious person say that we should join their religion in order to go to Heaven. Rather they say we should believe as they do to avoid going to Hell.

As A Jew, I think I can agree in the most part with a Christian or a Muslim about Heaven and how wonderful it will be. Heaven is therefore, not a bone of contention. But when the topic turns to Hell, tempers flare because I simply don't believe in it. So their threats about my eternal fate pass harmlessly over me. The fervent ones can't stand that their threats have no meaning to me.

 

[Sunstone]

I think it is easier for some people -- especially, I believe, people with an Evangelical or Fundamentalist bent -- to imagine hell vividly than it is for them to imagine heaven vividly. Hell, to them, is a concrete, almost visceral idea. Heaven, on the other hand is a vague, poorly grasped, mere wisp of an idea.

In my view, this is because there is something in their nature that makes them "spiritually" negative people, by which I mean they are much, much more motivated by fear, anger, envy, jealousy and other negative emotions than they are motivated by genuine love (which they so often mistake mere emotional dependency for), compassion (which, to the extent they have any at all, they reserve it for people they like), kindness (which, if they show it to someone, they expect to be repaid for having shown it), and so on and so forth.

In other words, it has been my experience in life that there exists a type of person I would call "spiritually negative" or "spiritually retarded" who it has seemed to me has a tendency to be a fundamentalist of one sort or another, and who has a much, much more vivid notion of torment than they do of bliss. And it is those people that I am guessing the OP is most likely more or less referring to when it states that some people are more likely to insist you accept their concept of hell than they are likely to insist you accept their concept of heaven.

But that's just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.

 

[David1967]

Probably because the Muslims & Christians that subscribe to a belief in Hell, also use it as a reason that a person should believe as they do. That is, I've never heard any religious person say that we should join their religion in order to go to Heaven. Rather they say we should believe as they do to avoid going to Hell.

As A Jew, I think I can agree in the most part with a Christian or a Muslim about Heaven and how wonderful it will be. Heaven is therefore, not a bone of contention. But when the topic turns to Hell, tempers flare because I simply don't believe in it. So their threats about my eternal fate pass harmlessly over me. The fervent ones can't stand that their threats have no meaning to me.

I think it is easier for some people -- especially, I believe, people with an Evangelical or Fundamentalist bent -- to imagine hell vividly than it is for them to imagine heaven vividly. Hell, to them, is a concrete, almost visceral idea. Heaven, on the other hand is a vague, poorly grasped, mere wisp of an idea.

In my view, this is because there is something in their nature that makes them "spiritually" negative people, by which I mean they are much, much more motivated by fear, anger, envy, jealousy and other negative emotions than they are motivated by genuine love (which they so often mistake mere emotional dependency for), compassion (which, to the extent they have any at all, they reserve it for people they like), kindness (which, if they show it to someone, they expect to be repaid for having shown it), and so on and so forth.

In other words, it has been my experience in life that there exists a type of person I would call "spiritually negative" or "spiritually retarded" who it has seemed to me has a tendency to be a fundamentalist of one sort or another, and who has a much, much more vivid notion of torment than they do of bliss. And it is those people that I am guessing the OP is most likely more or less referring to when it states that some people are more likely to insist you accept their concept of hell than they are likely to insist you accept their concept of heaven.

But that's just my two cents. Your mileage may vary.

I think you are correct at least from my experience. You and I have had conversation regarding this and you know my religious background concerning this. (Thanks for allowing me to vent) My problem growing up in the denomination I did was that I think too much about things. Even had Pastors tell me as much. I never was at a service where someone came to Christ because they wanted to follow Christ. It was the threat and fear of being burned alive for eternity that inspired their conversion. I have spent many years contemplating this subject and trying to make it fit with my personal belief in God.

 

[Sunstone]

I think you are correct at least from my experience. You and I have had conversation regarding this and you know my religious background concerning this. (Thanks for allowing me to vent) My problem growing up in the denomination I did was that I think too much about things. Even had Pastors tell me as much. I never was at a service where someone came to Christ because they wanted to follow Christ. It was the threat and fear of being burned alive for eternity that inspired their conversion. I have spent many years contemplating this subject and trying to make it fit with my personal belief in God.

If I may say so, I very strongly suspect, Dave, that part of the reason your early years in a "hell fire and damnation" church were so troubling to you might be not merely because the preaching was so negative, but perhaps even more so because the negativity of the preaching was in direct contradiction to your own natural spiritual instincts, which strike me as pretty positive. Put a little differently, the message of the preaching wasn't just frightful, but beyond that, the message was a direct contradiction of who you were spiritually. At least, that's the best I could come up with after our conversations about it.

 

[Corthos]

I think you are correct at least from my experience. You and I have had conversation regarding this and you know my religious background concerning this. (Thanks for allowing me to vent) My problem growing up in the denomination I did was that I think too much about things. Even had Pastors tell me as much. I never was at a service where someone came to Christ because they wanted to follow Christ. It was the threat and fear of being burned alive for eternity that inspired their conversion. I have spent many years contemplating this subject and trying to make it fit with my personal belief in God.

Hmmm... I think that sentiment of hell that permeates American Christian culture like it has is in large part due to hell fire preachers like George Whitefield back in the first great awakening. Interesting that it's stuck around like it has... But, then again, fear is a pretty big motivator...

 

[David1967]

If I may say so, I very strongly suspect, Dave, that part of the reason your early years in a "hell fire and damnation" church were so troubling to you might be not merely because the preaching was so negative, but perhaps even more so because the negativity of the preaching was in direct contradiction to your own natural spiritual instincts, which strike me as pretty positive. Put a little differently, the message of the preaching wasn't just frightful, but beyond that, the message was a direct contradiction of who you were spiritually. At least, that's the best I could come up with after our conversations about it.

Thank you SS. I never thought of it that way, "being in contradiction to who I am spiritually", but it certainly is. Thanks my friend.

 

[Sunstone]

It's not about the concept itself, It's just that the people who have it are constantly attacked and judged for believing in it.
Personally, I wouldn't blame them for immediately getting defensive.

It's a funny thing about this world: Nearly every identifiable group of people is constantly attacked and judged for what they are. People who believe in hell are attacked for it, but so also people who are intellectuals are attacked for that, people who are Jews are attacked for that, people who help the homeless are attacked for that, people who love kittens are attacked for that -- and so on, almost endlessly. It's nearly impossible to find a group that some other group doesn't like.

But I have observed there are basically at least two responses people have to being attacked. One is to fight back, or shrug it off and ignore it without making a big fuss about it. And the other is to fight back or shrug it off while pretending that one is the only group on earth that's persecuted. "Why us and no one else", is the cry. The cry --- and the lie.

 

[Thana]

It's a funny thing about this world: Nearly every identifiable group of people is constantly attacked and judged for what they are. People who believe in hell are attacked for it, but so also people who are intellectuals are attacked for that, people who are Jews are attacked for that, people who help the homeless are attacked for that, people who love kittens are attacked for that -- and so on, almost endlessly. It's nearly impossible to find a group that some other group doesn't like.

But I have observed there are basically at least two responses people have to being attacked. One is to fight back, or shrug it off and ignore it without making a big fuss about it. And the other is to fight back or shrug it off while pretending that one is the only group on earth that's persecuted. "Why us and no one else", is the cry. The cry --- and the lie.

Persecution complex, yes I know.

But being defensive about something that you're constantly judged for is not playing victim, It's just a reasonable response to continuous criticism.

 

[Ingledsva]

Persecution complex, yes I know.

But being defensive about something that you're constantly judged for is not playing victim, It's just a reasonable response to continuous criticism.

But if Christians are telling us we are going to Hell, - then they should expect a debate on the facts, such as that Tanakh has no Hell, just Sheol, the holding place for ALL who die, until Messiah and Final Judgment, - the "second" death.

*

 

[David1967]

Persecution complex, yes I know.

But being defensive about something that you're constantly judged for is not playing victim, It's just a reasonable response to continuous criticism.

Just to be clear, I am not nor will I attack you or anyone else on this thread for having a different opinion than I do. In fact in the part of
the country that I live in you stand a lot more chance of being attacked for having a no fiery hell opinion than one who does. This forum has given me a freedom to discuss issues like this in an open, honest, hopefully friendly manner that would be very frowned upon in my area.

 

[Thana]

Just to be clear, I am not nor will I attack you or anyone else on this thread for having a different opinion than I do. In fact in the part of
the country that I live in you stand a lot more chance of being attacked for having a no fiery hell opinion than one who does. This forum has given me a freedom to discuss issues like this in an open, honest, hopefully friendly manner that would be very frowned upon in my area.

Oh I know, I was just trying to explain why some people are quick to get defensive about those beliefs is all.

 

[Thana]

But if Christians are telling us we are going to Hell, - then they should expect a debate on the facts, such as that Tanakh has no Hell, just Sheol, the holding place for ALL who die, until Messiah and Final Judgment, - the "second" death.

*

What if they're not telling you that you're going to hell, they just believe in it's existence?

 

[David1967]

Oh I know, I was just trying to explain why some people are quick to get defensive about those beliefs is all.

Thats good. And I am very familiar with people getting defensive about religion. I have such an enquiring personality that I am always engaging people in conversation on subjects outside the mainstream. This forum has been great. Thanks for your input.

 

[George-ananda]

In various discussions I have had over the years with people about their concepts of Heaven and Hell I have noticed something interesting. Keep in mind that most of those I have had this discussion with are from a more Christian fundamentalist background.
When discussing concepts of Heaven there was much room for friendly discussion. Some had the streets of gold in the clouds view. Some had an opinion that Heaven would be a perfect world with beautiful mountains sparkling rivers and no sadness or death. Many different views from different people. No contention among any of them on these differing thoughts of a heavenly paradise. But when I brought up the subject of whether or not there was fire in hell, all of a sudden the mood changed to defensive. Has anyone else had this experience where people seemed to be more protective of their concept of Hell than Heaven? If so why do you think this is so?

Makes sense. The concept of an eternal hell is more troubling and produces doubts in the minds of fundamentalists so they react more vehemently. I can paraphrase Bertrand Russell by saying those beliefs we can know with less certainty are expressed with the greatest emotional fervor. Politics and Religion are such.

 

[David1967]

Makes sense. The concept of an eternal hell is more troubling and produces doubts in the minds of fundamentalists so they react more vehemently. I can paraphrase Bertrand Russell by saying those beliefs we can know with less certainty are expressed with the greatest emotional fervor. Politics and Religion are such.

And we have both in abundance here on RF. If we can all keep it civil there may be hope for this world yet.

 

[Akivah]

What if they're not telling you that you're going to hell, they just believe in it's existence?

For me, that's fine. I just shrug about their beliefs. It's when they (usually a Christian) tells me that an Eternal Hell is a Jewish belief that I respond. There are many people that are clue-less about Judaism, but think they know enough to spout off about it. I correct those.

 

[David1967]

For me, that's fine. I just shrug about their beliefs. It's when they (usually a Christian) tells me that an Eternal Hell is a Jewish belief that I respond. There are many people that are clue-less about Judaism, but think they know enough to spout off about it. I correct those.

So is there any form of Judaism as far as you know that had this concept of eternal damnation?