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Are Russians Controlling Bernie Sanders Mind?

SoyLeche

meh...
Well, some details might have to be worked out later. In essence, the government has the option of setting the price. So, it's simply a matter of cutting the prices to the point that they're affordable and won't require an increase in taxes.

In fact, we can do that for just about everything the government spends money on. Just lower the prices, and it would save the taxpayers a ton of money - and we might even be able to put a dent in the National Debt. And we wouldn't have to raise taxes one bit.
To a point, but basic economics is not going to allow you to go arbitrarily low.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
"So, here's what we now know about Sanders' plans for America:
1) He isn't sure how much they will cost.
2) He isn't totally sure how he will pay for them.

He doesn't have to. He can adjust how he pays depending on the cost. Just like Trump adjusts how he pays for the wall - by shifting money from one project to another. And, as we know by now, as POTUS he has the power and the right to do so.
3) It's likely they will be paid for by an increase in taxes on the middle class."
That's how republicans do it. Bernie could, and would, raise taxes on the rich. (He's going to do it anyway. He's going to slowly rewind all the tax cuts for the rich since Reagan. When that has happened, the increase in income of the majority will once again reflect the increase of the 1%.)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
To a point, but basic economics is not going to allow you to go arbitrarily low.

Businesses do it all the time when they decide how little they're going to pay their employees. By offering such low wages, businesses are saying "your services are not worth that much to us, so this is what we're offering - take it or leave it."

I don't see why we couldn't do the same thing when the government purchases healthcare or military hardware: "This is what it's worth to us, take it or leave it."

If a basic economist insists that we should pay more for something which shouldn't cost that much, then the least they could do is show the math. But when challenged to do so, most "basic economists" fail miserably.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
On the other side you have the Republicans who have NO plan, other than to dismantle what's left of the Affordable Care act. Which will result in millions of people without any health coverage and bring back preexisting conditions, which will mean millions more are denied any coverage. In other words, the Republican's 'plan' is to let the healthcare industry continued to squeeze out every last dollar from the American public that it possibly can.
You're absolutely correct, and well said, imo. The Pubs had control of both houses of Congress and the presidency for two years, and not only didn't they get anything passed, they didn't even put a plan on the table.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Businesses do it all the time when they decide how little they're going to pay their employees. By offering such low wages, businesses are saying "your services are not worth that much to us, so this is what we're offering - take it or leave it."

I don't see why we couldn't do the same thing when the government purchases healthcare or military hardware: "This is what it's worth to us, take it or leave it."

If a basic economist insists that we should pay more for something which shouldn't cost that much, then the least they could do is show the math. But when challenged to do so, most "basic economists" fail miserably.
They can’t do it to arbitrarily low levels either.

my guess is that you haven’t taken an economics class.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
We really need to ask ourselves why is it that the other 20 most industrialized countries can offer universal coverage at less cost and with better outcomes? Are we as Americans genetically defective or something whereas we can't figure this out and come up with an approach that works? Whatever happened to "American pragmatism"?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
They can’t do it to arbitrarily low levels either.

my guess is that you haven’t taken an economics class.

The problem with guessing is that most of the time guesses are wrong, which you are in your guess.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
The problem with guessing is that most of the time guesses are wrong, which you are in your guess.
So, C, C-? ;)

There is a lower limit at which someone will trade their time and effort for dollars. People have different limits, but you can’t make the offer arbitrarily low if you need to have employees. As an extreme example - you can’t offer $0 (unless you provide some other benefit).

the government has the same limits. We can get much more efficient than we currently are, but not arbitrarily low.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
Businesses do it all the time when they decide how little they're going to pay their employees. By offering such low wages, businesses are saying "your services are not worth that much to us, so this is what we're offering - take it or leave it”.
What happens if everyone decides to “leave it”?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So, C, C-? ;)

No, I think I did better than that. I mean, I understand the concepts perfectly, but I just don't agree with the conservative slant on that particular field of study. Your guess was analogous to chiding someone for having the "wrong" political opinions by saying they never took a political science class.

Economics is merely an offshoot of political science. It's a social science, and economists know this, as do people who have taken economics courses.

The only ones who don't seem to realize it are conservatives who think that their brand of economics is a hard science with the consistent precision of mathematics. These ideologically driven system builders are the ones who bring discredit to the study of economics (just as they bring discredit to capitalism).

There is a lower limit at which someone will trade their time and effort for dollars. People have different limits, but you can’t make the offer arbitrarily low if you need to have employees. As an extreme example - you can’t offer $0 (unless you provide some other benefit).

the government has the same limits. We can get much more efficient than we currently are, but not arbitrarily low.

A lot of people are already getting arbitrarily low wages, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We also need to look at the other end, where those at the top get arbitrarily high salaries. That's where most of the problem is at present, so if the government has to start low-balling them, then that would be more efficient and save the taxpayers money.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What happens if everyone decides to “leave it”?

Then I guess they leave it.

But we also have to look at this somewhat consistently. Take healthcare, for example. What is the value of a human life? According to the Federal government, the current basic value of a human life is $7.25 per hour.

Healthcare is in the business of saving lives, so based on the value of a human life, we can consider the actual value of the services they offer and determine a fair price based on what it's actually worth to society at large.

And, just like any consumer or business which pays its employees, they can't pay for that which they can't afford.

If there was no Medicare or health insurance, and if everyone had to pay out of pocket for medical care, then few people would actually be able to afford it. The healthcare industry would have no other choice but to lower their prices, or else they'd collapse completely. That's what would happen if they decide to "leave it."
 

Vichar

Member
Or is he just another Socialist Democrat paying lip service?

The oldest trick in the book is to accuse your political opponents of what your side is in fact doing. We know for a fact that Trump is buddy-buddy with Putin, that the Russians tampered with the 2016 election via social media to weaken the United States' presence and influence in the world (because they knew Trump would make everyone else in the world mad because, well, he's Trump.)

Russian Election Hacking Efforts, Wider Than Previously Known, Draw Little Scrutiny
Did Russia Affect the 2016 Election? It’s Now Undeniable
2016 Election Hacking Fast Facts - CNN
How Russia Helped Swing the Election for Trump
Mueller's Report Shows All The Ways Russia Interfered In 2016 Presidential Election

All of the above are unbiased, reputable news sources. And they are all in the top 10 Google results when I searched for 2016 election tampering by the Russians. For Pete's sake, my fellow Americans, turn your brain on, do even a tiny bit of research, I'm begging you. Please, just a little common sense now before the 2020 elections will save you and your family a lot of self-inflicted trouble down the road. (Although, I do admit that hardships provide experiences that can hone the soul. What will be will be, as they say.)

Obviously, Trump is the 2020 candidate with the most ties to the Russians. Just a moment of clear thinking reveals this to a sensible human being.
 

Vichar

Member
You're absolutely correct, and well said, imo. The Pubs had control of both houses of Congress and the presidency for two years, and not only didn't they get anything passed, they didn't even put a plan on the table.
We agreed on something! Maybe one day voters will actually pay attention to what each individual candidate is planning instead of blindly voting along party lines. I'm not holding my breath, though.
 

Vichar

Member
Bernie Sanders can just do what Trump does - borrow the money. After all, the Trump party does not care how big the deficits are or how fast they're growing.

What? You mean to assert that's only true when they're in power and can give the rich more money in tax cuts (in dollar terms)? How dare someone imply that they're raging hypocrites who only complain when Democrats spend money.

Sigh. When are we going to get a President who knows how to balance the budget and erase the deficit? Oh right, Clinton did exactly that. Republicans used a political trick to discredit him. I'm so sick of my fellow Americans' inability to separate truth from untruth. Yeah, Clinton had some extracurricular activity with an intern, which was stupid of him given his role as POTUS. But what does that have to do with our lives as citizens of the US?

Meanwhile, Trump's extracurricular activities include treason against the United States of America. Yeah, pressuring a foreign power like Ukraine by withholding military aid so that you can gain a personal advantage in the 2020 election: if that's not treason, what is? And yes, that affects every single one of us living here in the US. How can you all be so blind? It's disheartening.

Republicans like to spend our (tax payers') money, and I say this as a previously registered Republican. They don't care about the future, or else why would they be trying so hard to repeal laws protecting clean air and water? Do they not have children who need to, you know, breathe? I think it's more likely they just don't know how to read a science textbook, much less a climate change journal. People who don't understand the necessity of balancing the national budget are probably carrying a lot of personal debt. That debt adds up fast, don't think you can borrow forever without consequences. Even if somehow you get bailed out, karma is perfect and will need to be repaid in full.
 
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Stanyon

WWMRD?
my fellow Americans, turn your brain on, do even a tiny bit of research, I'm begging you. Please, just a little common sense now before the 2020 elections will save you and your family a lot of self-inflicted trouble down the road.

Fear mongering didn't work in 2016 and won't work in 2020, Americans are too smart for that.
 

Vichar

Member
Fear mongering didn't work in 2016 and won't work in 2020, Americans are too smart for that.

I'm not sure if that is your profile picture, but by all means, vote for Trump who thinks the way you treat women is to "grab them by the kitty". Except the word he used wasn't as polite. Why not empower women by having a historic first woman as the president of the United States? Also, I don't know what you feel about Obama, but I personally think that he was presidential (he had the dignity for the office) and he did a lot of what he set out to do. He established a form of universal healthcare, but nobody pays attention to little details like most of what is wrong with "Obamacare" is due to the pork belly clauses that the Republicans insisted on adding to it before it passed. Typical strategy: do evil deeds, blame your opponents, and don't care about how it harms the average American. Are you even thinking clearly anymore, or have you been completely brainwashed by the likes of Fox News and Trump's campaign advisers? You do realize that Obama is a black man, right? And yes, he was born in the United States. America was finally becoming racially color-blind, however slowly, and now after just 3 years with Trump everyone is mad at everyone else. Racial tensions are at all time highs. Poor people are really against rich people. Stupid people are really mad at intellectuals. You can thank our Commander-In-Tweet for setting everyone against each other, and the rest of the world against US.

Obama did a lot to help the country recover from the financial crisis of 2008-2009, and set our economy back on track. And along comes Trump, who inherited this economic expansion, and typical of the graceless fool he is, he tries to take credit for it. You know what smart Americans know? Trump had nothing to do with that economic recovery and has done everything in his power to derail it. His tariffs set off a chain reaction in the world economy that almost started worldwide recession. Anyone who understands basic economic theory knows something so obvious: tariffs are worse than a zero sum gain game, they hurt both sides in a downward spiral of taxation and profit loss. The net effect of Trump's tariffs is that American blue collar workers lost their jobs, exactly the opposite of what Trump promised.

Once again, your profile picture makes you look like a black woman, but you didn't want to vote for a woman (Hilary), and you don't (apparently) think much of a black person (Obama). We fought really hard in this country so black people can vote (February 3, 1870, 15th Amendment). We fought really hard in this country so women can vote (August 18, 1920, 19th Amendment). Instead, you seem to be hell-bent on supporting a self-proclaimed misogynist and racist white man, Donald Trump. Are you sure you know what to do with your right to vote?
 
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Stanyon

WWMRD?
I'm not sure if that is your profile picture, but by all means, vote for Trump who thinks the way you treat women is to "grab them by the kitty". Except the word he used wasn't as polite. Why not empower women by having a historic first woman as the president of the United States? Also, I don't know what you feel about Obama, but I personally think that he was presidential (he had the dignity for the office) and he did a lot of what he set out to do. He established a form of universal healthcare, but nobody pays attention to little details like most of what is wrong with "Obamacare" is due to the pork belly clauses that the Republicans insisted on adding to it before it passed. Typical strategy: do evil deeds, blame your opponents, and don't care about how it harms the average American. Are you even thinking clearly anymore, or have you been completely brainwashed by the likes of Fox News and Trump's campaign advisers? You do realize that Obama is a black man, right? And yes, he was born in the United States. America was finally becoming racially color-blind, however slowly, and now after just 3 years with Trump everyone is mad at everyone else. Racial tensions are at all time highs. Poor people are really against rich people. Stupid people are really mad at intellectuals. You can thank our Commander-In-Tweet for setting everyone against each other, and the rest of the world against US.

Obama did a lot to help the country recover from the financial crisis of 2008-2009, and set our economy back on track. And along comes Trump, who inherited this economic expansion, and typical of the graceless fool he is, he tries to take credit for it. You know what smart Americans know? Trump had nothing to do with that economic recovery and has done everything in his power to derail it. His tariffs set off a chain reaction in the world economy that almost started worldwide recession. Anyone who understands basic economic theory knows something so obvious: tariffs are worse than a zero sum gain game, they hurt both sides in a downward spiral of taxation and profit loss.

Once again, your profile picture makes you look like a black woman, but you didn't want to vote for a woman (Hilary), and you don't (apparently) think much of a black person (Obama). We fought really hard in this country so black people can vote (February 3, 1870, 15th Amendment). We fought really hard in this country so women can vote (August 18, 1920, 19th Amendment). Instead, you seem to be hell-bent on supporting a self-proclaimed misogynist and racist white man, Donald Trump. Are you sure you know what to do with your right to vote?

My avatar is actually the future Dr. Who of the scifi series.

Claims of racism does not have the same impact on black voters as it has in years past as blacks are actually seeing progress and advancement under Trump. You might want to do a little research, blacks are increasingly abandoning the democratic party. I imagine the democrats will go full tilt on racism in the coming months because democratic strategists think blacks are really that dumb and easy to manipulate.
Once again this will fall on deaf ears
 
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