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are public schools failing boys

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Jeez! I'm sorry Dawny. That really sucks. ((((hugs)))).

Definitely we need to get a handle on that, especially with the internet. A girl here was sexually harassed and bullied to the point of suicide last year.

Not me. Dallas Apple.

I can honestly say that I haven't been sexually harassed. It very much sucks that Dallas Apple went through this.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Jeez! I'm sorry Dawny. That really sucks. ((((hugs)))).

Definitely we need to get a handle on that, especially with the internet. A girl here was sexually harassed and bullied to the point of suicide last year.

Thanks.:) And how sad...:sad4:

But I do think now girls are more likely to be aware that is not something they should just "expect" because that's just the way boys are .Or that she invited it.She is more likely to report it.And the schools are more likely to take it seriously.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Great summary. I don't know what the original comment meant, but it does seem like boys are actually doing more of the stuff that needs discipline.

As l recall, boys misbehave by being visible and acting out while girls misbehave by plotting and scheming. When I was bullied in school, it was 100% girl-powered, but not visible. I prefer the rambunctious kind of misbehavior to be honest.

I know anecdotes aren't worth much, but when I was in primary I got ticked off at a boy who dropped grass down my shirt. I tackled him and pinned him to the ground, stuffing huge handfuls of grass into his shirt. He was hollering and the playground mom came over. It was his mom. She said "Travis Sheehan*! Get to the principal's office!" As he went off, she said to me "I don't know what he did, but he probably deserved it."

I always thought that was weird. Although he totally did deserve it. Lol.

* not his real name
I do think it's likely that girls are more likely to do subtle bullying while boys are more likely to do obvious bullying, with the latter being easier to discipline. Girls typically bully by social exclusion, gossiping, etc. Boys also do a degree of that by means of forming hierarchies around sports abilities or other activities.

Due to the type of special classes I was in through school, I largely avoided bullying, because students in those classes did little or no bullying, and when I was in extra-curricular academic groups like mathletes or reading olympics, there wasn't much bullying there either. I was sometimes in regular classes but there wasn't much action there, and riding the school bus was usually a pretty obnoxious experience. I do admit there were a couple of times in middle school for a few girls where I kind of subtly put another girl down, and then was genuinely nice to her later, as kind of social positioning for dominance alpha/beta Discovery Channel type of stuff. :facepalm:

I did see a lot more physical fights between boys than girls, although I did see one instance of a high school girl and a boy fighting each other, with the girl being the clear aggressor and the boy just defending himself.

I pushed an older boy around at a bus stop in middle school once because he and several other boys were hurting a younger boy, and as I recall I pushed another boy down at recess in elementary school because the same younger boy (he was a neighbor of mine) was being bullied by him.

I saw an instance in middle school where an older boy was walking down the hallway and he passed some younger boy and purposely knocked all the books out of his hands. The older boy's girlfriend berated him and then helped the younger boy pick up his books. There was another instance where a bunch of boys in high school were pushing around some other boys in the lunch room, and one of the aggressive boy's girlfriend kept trying to get them to stop.

A friend of mine was challenged to meet at a place to fight by another boy once in high school, and he asked me to come to the fight and watch, because he was worried that the other boy would bring a few people and hurt him, and he wanted a witness or someone to deter the boys from doing anything other than their agreed upon one-vs-one fight. So I went to that, they fought and nobody was hurt too bad, and then we left.

There was another instance in coed gym class where a huge boy got another boy in a headlock and several boys and girls were trying to convince him to let him go. There were a lot of fights in gym class in general. The male gym locker rooms regularly had a lot of stuff stolen from them while the female gym locker rooms had a lot less of that. Some boys would give valuable stuff to girls to keep in their backpacks to reduce the chance of theft.

There were some physically aggressive instances between boys and between girls at some parties. There were also occasionally fights at the local mall on Friday nights, because for some reason Friday night was when several dozens of goth kids went to the mall and most of them were fine but a few boys would fight each other or other people. I mean, there would be like 80 goths in one big group. Sometimes I would go to a movie at the mall and be like, "Oh crap, I forgot it's goth night. We should use the other entrance." I was good friends with one of them in homeroom class though , and I knew another one from German class.

Public school can really be like a zoo at times.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I don't think that's the answer. Not all girls are the same, and not all boys are the same. If you bring in some strategies specifically designed to inspire boys, those same strategies will also benefit some girls. Likewise, as Vouthon mentioned, some boys learn in a way typically associated with girls. (Soak up the lesson, whatever it is, as opposed to only soaking up what they're most interested in).

What you want is smaller class sizes and more opportunities for self-directed learning for both genders, understanding that those opportunities will generally be particularly appealing to boys.

I don't know how to get more men to teach ECE. If they don't want to, then :shrug:

Oh, I don't doubt that some "boy" strategies would work better for individual girls as well as vice-versa.

Gender segregated classes wouldn't be better off if only a "male" or a "female" curriculum were imposed.

But, just in general, I wonder if kids would be better served if separated. Maybe creating a brotherhood atmosphere would encourage guys to stay in school, and a sorority one for girls to be more comfortable. Maybe it would reduce distraction for both sexes.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Not me. Dallas Apple.

I can honestly say that I haven't been sexually harassed. It very much sucks that Dallas Apple went through this.

Thanks.I think part of my problem was I was too timid to speak up.I froze like a dear in the lights.I also didn't want them to get mad at me .I think it doesn't help I was molested at 4 and 5 by two older boys that lived next door to my grandmother.Almost like it was their right or I asked for it or again that's just how /boys men are so I think I was a target.Stuff like this kept happening to me over the years even in the workplace.

I would see the other girls reacting like rolling their eyes..Or oooh that's gross shut up ..or "you wish!".

Anyway don't want to derail further ..just saying I think awareness on that issue is prevalent now and it wont be tolerated.Including if teachers witness it they are more likely to intervene and nip that in the bud or do something they see it continuing.
 

moodys

Member
Thanks.:) And how sad...:sad4:

But I do think now girls are more likely to be aware that is not something they should just "expect" because that's just the way boys are .Or that she invited it.She is more likely to report it.And the schools are more likely to take it seriously.
When I was a kid, I did certain things which could be viewed as sexual misconduct towards girls, but most of them enjoyed it so it probably would count. And the ones that did complain, there were no consequences at all. I even cut a girl's hair once (but Romney also cut somebody's hair once as well and he was on the ballot for the presidency).
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Oh, I don't doubt that some "boy" strategies would work better for individual girls as well as vice-versa.

Gender segregated classes wouldn't be better off if only a "male" or a "female" curriculum were imposed.

But, just in general, I wonder if kids would be better served if separated. Maybe creating a brotherhood atmosphere would encourage guys to stay in school, and a sorority one for girls to be more comfortable. Maybe it would reduce distraction for both sexes.

I don't think it would. I can't see why it would. And the risks are huge of kids picking up even worse gender binary cognitive bias than they already have.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
[QUOTEWhen I was a kid, I did certain things which could be viewed as sexual misconduct towards girls, but most of them enjoyed it so it probably would count. ][/QUOTE]

Right. But now the ones that do not enjoy it should be informed they have the right to not be touched or verbally sexually harrassed and the school policies are in place to protect her.This would also protect her against any retaliation that may have occurred had she just told him to leave her alone.Or if she does and they retaliate.

I had a friend that happened to .She thwarted advances next thing she knows they are going around lying about her in detailed stories about having all kinds of sex with her ..she was the school **** then.Even though she was a virgin.

Anyway I'm just saying if there is an INCREASE from times past of boys getting in trouble that might be a piece of it.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I don't think it would. I can't see why it would. And the risks are huge of kids picking up even worse gender binary cognitive bias than they already have.

Also wouldn't THAT be sending the message that boys are less capable than girls to integrate with girls or learn side by side?
 

moodys

Member
Right. But now the ones that do not enjoy it should be informed they have the right to not be touched or verbally sexually harrassed and the school policies are in place to protect her.This would also protect her against any retaliation that may have occurred had she just told him to leave her alone.Or if she does and they retaliate.

I had a friend that happened to .She thwarted advances next thing she knows they are going around lying about her in detailed stories about having all kinds of sex with her ..she was the school **** then.Even though she was a virgin.

Anyway I'm just saying if there is an INCREASE from times past of boys getting in trouble that might be a piece of it.
It's he-said she-said. I cannot conceive of most boys being punished over touching a girl's thigh, throwing themselves over girls, pulling their hair etc.etc. unless either a camera sees it (with the way the country is going, I can forsee cameras in every classroom, playground and corridor) or a large number of people see it. Kids can find excuses for anything, or successfully absolve themselves of their actions.

And like you said, school bullying has now reached new heights entirely with cyber-bullying and the type of defamation that you gave. As technology continues to develop, all we are going to see are kids exploiting new ways of doing what they like, sinister or otherwise. It's not uncommon to see bullying on youtube these days, and even then it takes a while for schools to act.

I'm sorry for ranting, but could I just point one thing out. The persecution of a hacker whistle blower who exposed the rape and sexual assault of a high school girl who faces charges that are worth more than the rapes themselves is further evidence how little the State actually cares about the sexual preying on girls and indeed women. For those who are not aware of the case they can read it here and here.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh, I don't doubt that some "boy" strategies would work better for individual girls as well as vice-versa.

Gender segregated classes wouldn't be better off if only a "male" or a "female" curriculum were imposed.

But, just in general, I wonder if kids would be better served if separated. Maybe creating a brotherhood atmosphere would encourage guys to stay in school, and a sorority one for girls to be more comfortable. Maybe it would reduce distraction for both sexes.

I don't think it would. I can't see why it would. And the risks are huge of kids picking up even worse gender binary cognitive bias than they already have.

I would generally be against any major separation of genders in schools. I think socialization between the genders is pretty important, especially early on. Unless maybe the statistics showed that doing so was overwhelmingly beneficial.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
It's he-said she-said. I cannot conceive of most boys being punished over touching a girl's thigh, throwing themselves over girls, pulling their hair etc.etc. unless either a camera sees it (with the way the country is going, I can forsee cameras in every classroom, playground and corridor) or a large number of people see it.

Then bring in the cameras.Then that way everyone is protected.That makes a lot more sense than telling the kids basically anything can happen to you in school and there isn't anything anyone will do about it unless you have MANY eye witnesses.That would be cause for great insecurity and anxiety if you have your self a stalker at school.

My son in about the 8th grade was a target of a known bully.He had known him since kindergarten and had personally never had a problem with him.But I guess it was his turn.The boy was deliberatley following him into the bathroom ..pushing him around and calling him derogatory names.This happened every day for about a week and my son told me about if.I called the school.They spoke to both of them .Of course the bully denies it.(the bullies ALWAYS lie you can count on that ) .The dean told me that they believed my son because the bully had a long list of complaints against him .He was in trouble at school all the time.Anyway they said however its your sons word against his.

So what they did was gave my son special access to the staffs restrooms indefinately.Didn't take long before the bully got caught doing something else.PHYSICALLY attacking the dean and was expelled.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
It's he-said she-said. I cannot conceive of most boys being punished over touching a girl's thigh, throwing themselves over girls, pulling their hair etc.etc.

Also I don't think depending on what it is but to use your examples would call for harsh punishment if its once.A talk with him .If it continues though then stronger discipline should be enforced.Otherwise the message you are sending is boys are just flat out entitled to grope and harass the girls.And its her obligation to him to just get over it if she doesn't like it .

Where else in public would you think its O.K for young boys to be allowed to at their leisure reach out and rub a girls thigh or snap their bra or slap their butt just because they had the impulse?Or blurt out some rated X remark to her? Is it any an all girls in the world ? Or just at school?
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
So what I am hearing with regards to discipline is that "boys are just more likely to misbehave," does this then transfer to "blacks are more likely to misbehave" since African American students also face more discipline in schools?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
So what I am hearing with regards to discipline is that "boys are just more likely to misbehave," does this then transfer to "blacks are more likely to misbehave" since African American students also face more discipline in schools?

Misbehavior is positively correlated with poverty, and so is being African American. Being a boy is positively correlated with rambunctious behavior. We can do something about poverty, but we can't do much about testosterone except reexamine our expectations for what constitutes "good behavior" for boys.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Or that they're so different from one another that they shouldn't try to do anything together.


Right lets reinforce the message men are from mars women are from venus so its hopeless.

Even though I do think Sunstone pointed out titles (thinking) like that as adults could be based more on how teenagers act.

But then what about gay boys and lesbian girls? Should we put the feminine gay boys in the girls class and the masuline ones in the boys? Same with lesbiens? I heard that gay men have brains more similar to females in the brain scans...

Or should they all have their own separate classes?Now Im :confused:
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Misbehavior is positively correlated with poverty, and so is being African American. Being a boy is positively correlated with rambunctious behavior. We can do something about poverty, but we can't do much about testosterone except reexamine our expectations for what constitutes "good behavior" for boys.

I do not believe there are excessive differences in post pubescent children's testosterone levels. I would suggest that socialization is very much a part of this problem and anyone who shifts the focus from schools to parents is sandbagging the issue. Sure parents shoulder part of the blame, so does media, so do a lot of factors but we are discussing schools. To try to refocus that is to try to gloss over part of the problem.

While I follow your logic with poverty statistics, I think that your reasoning disregards racial discrimination. Essentially, I read your suggestion to mean that the difference in discipline which African American kids face can be chalked solely up to the fact that statistically black = more likely to be poor. I am not saying that poverty does not play a role in the disparity of discipline, I am saying that to conclude causation or even suggest causation is presumptuous.

On a side, poverty and race reading you might find interesting.

http://inequality.org/poverty-matter-black-white/
 
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