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are public schools failing boys

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I don't know about the ratio, but since teaching used to be "women's work", I expect the few male teachers there are in ECE are a relatively new phenomenon, like male nurses and secretaries.

I didn't have a single male teacher until grade seven. Then it was about half and half.

It's funny that all those women taught me nothing but men's history. I got the impression that "real careers" were not for girls. If the boys were sitting there thinking education was not for boys because the teachers were all female, that's a crappy deal for everybody.

Exactly that's how my mind goes.If someone says kindergarten teacher 1st grade teacher 2nd grade teacher 3rd grade teacher I assume female.Like if someone says "the pilot that flew the plane" I picture a man.I wouldn't be "shocked" if someone said it was a woman pilot.Its just historically it has been mostly men flying planes.I mean of course there is Ameilia Earheart.:D

So I don't understand how or when even this lack of male primary school teachers started to have these negative impact on boys.When in my memory its always been that way.More women teaching the younger kids.

Even if somebody says "we home school our kids" ...I assume its the mother doing the teaching or most of it anyway.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
The harsher treatment for boys? Of course I think that is unfair.But again I don't think thats some new discrimination.I mean just think of corporal punishment over the last 100 years who was more likely to get sent to the office for a paddeling? A boy or a girl? I think the girls had to stand in the corner facing the wall.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The harsher treatment for boys? Of course I think that is unfair.But again I don't think thats some new discrimination.I mean just think of corporal punishment over the last 100 years who was more likely to get sent to the office for a paddeling? A boy or a girl? I think the girls had to stand in the corner facing the wall.
Things were more enlightened in the 60s.
I had to sit under the piano.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Lots of info here:
the boys initiative

If you work your way down, boys are twice as likely to be suspended and three times as likely to be expelled.

Could this be because boys are doing more stupid things to get themselves expelled? This was afterall, my experience throughout school. For every girl that was problematic in the classroom - there were 1-2 boys who were getting in trouble for something equally as ridiculous.

We don't like to gender stereotype, but, sometimes stereotypes fit. Boys and girls don't develop at the same pace emotionally and boys do tend to be more immature than girls, particularly, during school age. A harsher penalty for the same action is uncalled for. But, the stats that you've provided, seem to just suggest that boys are getting in trouble more - not that there's necessarily a problem with boys or that they are being discriminated against.
 
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moodys

Member
Exactly that's how my mind goes.If someone says kindergarten teacher 1st grade teacher 2nd grade teacher 3rd grade teacher I assume female.Like if someone says "the pilot that flew the plane" I picture a man.I wouldn't be "shocked" if someone said it was a woman pilot.Its just historically it has been mostly men flying planes.I mean of course there is Ameilia Earheart.:D

So I don't understand how or when even this lack of male primary school teachers started to have these negative impact on boys.When in my memory its always been that way.More women teaching the younger kids.

Even if somebody says "we home school our kids" ...I assume its the mother doing the teaching or most of it anyway.
The natural reactions which you are talking about do have factual basis, but what stops people acting on it is political correctness. Political correctness is a powerful tool that can be used not just to advance a nation's interests in terms of equality for all groups of people in employment, civil rights etc. etc. But it is also used to suppress factual information with regards to the characteristics of certain groups of people.

Voicing ideas like women are more nurturing, "motherly", less aggressive than men and therefore they should be (and indeed are) in prime position to take care of children not just at home, but in public institutions such as school, kindergarten etc. can be considered almost as bad as Roosevelt's decision to intern over 100,000 Japanese on US soil as part of an urgent national security protocol. The idea is that something can be right and wrong at the same time, while it may be correct to say certain things about blacks, women, hispanics, Japanese etc. At the same time it is better not to voice it in public for fear of public reprisal. In other words, keep the facts to yourself.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Could this be because boys are doing more stupid things to get themselves expelled? This was afterall, my experience throughout the school. For every girl that was problematic in the classroom - there were 1-2 boys who were getting in trouble.
We don't like to gender stereotype, but, sometimes stereotypes fit. Boys and girls don't develop at the same pace emotionally and boys do tend to be more immature than girls, particularly, during school age. A harsher penalty for the same action is uncalled for. But, the stats that you've provided, seem to just suggest that boys are getting in trouble more.
I agree. Boys are different. (I had experience as one once.)
We aren't engaging in stereotyping if we note general differences, so long as we allow for individual variation
The trick is to punish & reward all kids in a fashion which is productive.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Could this be because boys are doing more stupid things to get themselves expelled? This was afterall, my experience throughout school. For every girl that was problematic in the classroom - there were 1-2 boys who were getting in trouble for something equally as ridiculous.

We don't like to gender stereotype, but, sometimes stereotypes fit. Boys and girls don't develop at the same pace emotionally and boys do tend to be more immature than girls, particularly, during school age. A harsher penalty for the same action is uncalled for. But, the stats that you've provided, seem to just suggest that boys are getting in trouble more - not that there's necessarily a problem with boys or that they are being discriminated against.

Could be. Hard to say. Definitely my boy students are more squirmy and energetic, but I don't perceive that as a discipline problem. I think they're just squirmy and energetic.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
^That's a really useful set of facts for this whole thread.

If you work your way down, boys are twice as likely to be suspended and three times as likely to be expelled.
Curious George said, "More boys are disciplined more harshly in schools.", to which Dawny asked for statistics. You did then provide some statistics about suspension and expulsion.

There are a couple of ways to interpret this, though. Did the original statement mean that boys are disciplined more harshly for the same thing as girls (discrimination), or that boys are more likely to be disciplined for having done something worth being disciplined for (behavioral differences)?

That page of facts says boys are 1.5x as likely to use alcohol on school property, 2x as likely to use marijuana on school property, 1.5x as likely to smoke on school property, 8x as likely to use smokeless tobacco on school property, 3x as likely to carry a weapon on school property, 2x as likely to get into a fight on school property, and 2x as likely to be threatened or injured by a weapon. So it would seem that boys are doing more things that they would get disciplined for, and then indeed getting disciplined more.

The stats also point out other things: boys are less likely to read for pleasure, 3x more likely to play a lot of video games at home, more likely to watch a lot of tv, much less likely to do community service, much less likely to engage in non-sport school programs and clubs, less likely to do a lot of homework, and are a lot more likely to be enrolled in a non-school sport.

Based on the data it seems to me that parents have a larger impact/responsibility than schools, due to the statistical differences that occur outside of school.
 

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
I agree. Boys are different. (I had experience as one once.)
The trick is to punish & reward all kids in a fashion which is productive.

I agree with you.

I just haven't seen through personal experience, that boys were treated differently than girls. I saw boys being more problematic in the classroom - many of whom were repeat offenders. So, their penalty would be harsher than the girl who acts out once for the same action and is then sent to the principle's office.

That's not discriminatory.

My daughter comes home with stories about 3-4 of the boys in her class who act up constantly. She's pretty good friends with one of the boys and I asked if she got in trouble too, when they did. She said "No, Mom. I put my book up when I heard the teacher coming down the hall, and got back to work. They kept talking."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree with you.

I just haven't seen through personal experience, that boys were treated differently than girls. I saw boys being more problematic in the classroom - many of whom were repeat offenders. So, their penalty would be harsher than the girl who acts out once for the same action and is then sent to the principle's office.

That's not discriminatory.

My daughter comes home with stories about 3-4 of the boys in her class who act up constantly. She's pretty good friends with one of the boys and I asked if she got in trouble too, when they did. She said "No, Mom. I put my book up when I heard the teacher coming down the hall, and got back to work. They kept talking."
When I was in school, I didn't see boys being treated harshly.
The bigger problem was that kids who weren't on track for college were becoming more
& more ignored. It's even worse today, with the widespread elimination of shop classes.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Could this be because boys are doing more stupid things to get themselves expelled? This was afterall, my experience throughout school. For every girl that was problematic in the classroom - there were 1-2 boys who were getting in trouble for something equally as ridiculous.

We don't like to gender stereotype, but, sometimes stereotypes fit. Boys and girls don't develop at the same pace emotionally and boys do tend to be more immature than girls, particularly, during school age. A harsher penalty for the same action is uncalled for. But, the stats that you've provided, seem to just suggest that boys are getting in trouble more - not that there's necessarily a problem with boys or that they are being discriminated against.
According to Alceste's source of statistics, the boys are indeed doing more things that they can get disciplined over.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
^That's a really useful set of facts for this whole thread.

Curious George said, "More boys are disciplined more harshly in schools.", to which Dawny asked for statistics. You did then provide some statistics about suspension and expulsion.

There are a couple of ways to interpret this, though. Did the original statement mean that boys are disciplined more harshly for the same thing as girls (discrimination), or that boys are more likely to be disciplined for having done something worth being disciplined for (behavioral differences)?

That page of facts says boys are 1.5x as likely to use alcohol on school property, 2x as likely to use marijuana on school property, 1.5x as likely to smoke on school property, 8x as likely to use smokeless tobacco on school property, 3x as likely to carry a weapon on school property, 2x as likely to get into a fight on school property, and 2x as likely to be threatened or injured by a weapon. So it would seem that boys are doing more things that they would get disciplined for, and then indeed getting disciplined more.

The stats also point out other things: boys are less likely to read for pleasure, 3x more likely to play a lot of video games at home, more likely to watch a lot of tv, much less likely to do community service, much less likely to engage in non-sport school programs and clubs, less likely to do a lot of homework, and are a lot more likely to be enrolled in a non-school sport.

Based on the data it seems to me that parents have a larger impact/responsibility than schools, due to the statistical differences that occur outside of school.

Great summary. I don't know what the original comment meant, but it does seem like boys are actually doing more of the stuff that needs discipline.

As l recall, boys misbehave by being visible and acting out while girls misbehave by plotting and scheming. When I was bullied in school, it was 100% girl-powered, but not visible. I prefer the rambunctious kind of misbehavior to be honest.

I know anecdotes aren't worth much, but when I was in primary I got ticked off at a boy who dropped grass down my shirt. I tackled him and pinned him to the ground, stuffing huge handfuls of grass into his shirt. He was hollering and the playground mom came over. It was his mom. She said "Travis Sheehan*! Get to the principal's office!" As he went off, she said to me "I don't know what he did, but he probably deserved it."

I always thought that was weird. Although he totally did deserve it. Lol.

* not his real name
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Great summary. I don't know what the original comment meant, but it does seem like boys are actually doing more of the stuff that needs discipline.

Including hate to say it but boys are more likely to sexually harass the girls.At least in middle and high school.I don't know how it is now but that started for me in the 5th grade.It was awful.I think that is one of the things under the zero tolerance guidlines now.And please nobody say they get falsley accused too.I'm talking about when its not false.Back in the day I think it was pretty much dismissed as "boys will be boys" .Now its not tolerated.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Including hate to say it but boys are more likely to sexually harass the girls.At least in middle and high school.I don't know how it is now but that started for me in the 5th grade.It was awful.I think that is one of the things under the zero tolerance guidlines now.And please nobody say they get falsley accused too.I'm talking about when its not false.Back in the day I think it was pretty much dismissed as "boys will be boys" .Now its not tolerated.

I guess I dodged that bullet apart from a couple bizarre comments ("you have magnificent hips for child-bearing" stands out in my memory lol). Maybe that is an advantage of being on the girls' hit list. The boys hardly talked to me at all.
 

DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
I guess I dodged that bullet apart from a couple bizarre comments ("you have magnificent hips for child-bearing" stands out in my memory lol). Maybe that is an advantage of being on the girls' hit list. The boys hardly talked to me at all.

Oh man..When I was 12/13 there was a 16 year old guy that would come up behind me at my locker and run his finger in between my legs.This was ongoing.Around the same time maybe at 13 the boys my age started it.One time two of them cornered me in the library telling me what they were going to me and the rest of the girls now that we were graduating to the 6th grade.I even have my year book still where one of them signed it "I want to eat you out " love Richard.i had never even heard that phrase before I wasn't sure what it meant but I later figured out I had guessed right.:facepalm:

And that was just the beginning.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Oh man..When I was 12/13 there was a 16 year old guy that would come up behind me at my locker and run his finger in between my legs.This was ongoing.Around the same time maybe at 13 the boys my age started it.One time two of them cornered me in the library telling me what they were going to me and the rest of the girls now that we were graduating to the 6th grade.I even have my year book still where one of them signed it "I want to eat you out " love Richard.i had never even heard that phrase before I wasn't sure what it meant but I later figured out I had guessed right.:facepalm:

And that was just the beginning.

Jeez! I'm sorry Dawny. That really sucks. ((((hugs)))).

Definitely we need to get a handle on that, especially with the internet. A girl here was sexually harassed and bullied to the point of suicide last year.
 
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