Are people who suffer most really more spiritual?

[Trailblazer]

PART 1:

If religious people are going to make claims, I think they should be able to back up their claims with evidence.

Are people who suffer most really more spiritual? Do they have a better character?
Conversely, are people who have had a relatively easy life lacking in character and spirituality?
Will those who suffer most in this life be better off in the afterlife?

As noted below, these are the claims of the Baha’i Faith, but I am not so sure I believe them.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 51

PART 2:

If people who suffer a lot are not better off in the afterlife than people who have had a relatively easy life, why does God allow (through fate) certain people to suffer so much more than others? Allegedly God is just. How is that just? The only way this can be considered just is if those who suffer most get a reward in the afterlife, but it requires a lot of faith to believe what we cannot yet see.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is all about how we face life and what life gives us.

Do we treat all what we face with dull resignation, or do we embrace our challenges with radiant acquiescence?

Regards Tony

 

[Secret Chief]

PART 1:

If religious people are going to make claims, I think they should be able to back up their claims with evidence.

Are people who suffer most really more spiritual? Do they have a better character?
Conversely, are people who have had a relatively easy life lacking in character and spirituality?
Will those who suffer most in this life be better off in the afterlife?

As noted below, these are the claims of the Baha’i Faith, but I am not so sure I believe them.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 51

PART 2:

If people who suffer a lot are not better off in the afterlife than people who have had a relatively easy life, why does God allow (through fate) certain people to suffer so much more than others? Allegedly God is just. How is that just? The only way this can be considered just is if those who suffer most get a reward in the afterlife, but it requires a lot of faith to believe what we cannot yet see.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

"suffer" meaning what?

 

[sun rise]

Are people who suffer most really more spiritual? Do they have a better character?

Conversely, are people who have had a relatively easy life lacking in character and spirituality?

Not necessarily.

Unavoidable suffering can be motivating and cause someone to look deep inside themselves and find a way of changing how they approach life. Or it can make someone angry, embittered, resentful and generally negative.

An easy life can cause someone to make no efforts to work on themselves. Or someone can feel grateful for having the freedom to really focus on becoming a better person.

Will those who suffer most in this life be better off in the afterlife?

From my perspective, the past life review that one undergoes will involve how one has responded to the challenges of suffering or has taken the opportunity of a relatively easy life.

 

[ChristineM]

My brother in law is a paranoid schizophrenic and suffers terribly. I won't go into details but i will say he is one of the most genuine, honest and decent people i know, he literally would not hurt a fly. He really struggles to hold down a job, freelance working from home with very little interaction with other people.

He does not have a spiritual bone in his body

 

[Wildswanderer]

PART 1:

If religious people are going to make claims, I think they should be able to back up their claims with evidence.

Are people who suffer most really more spiritual? Do they have a better character?
Conversely, are people who have had a relatively easy life lacking in character and spirituality?
Will those who suffer most in this life be better off in the afterlife?

As noted below, these are the claims of the Baha’i Faith, but I am not so sure I believe them.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.”
Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 51

PART 2:

If people who suffer a lot are not better off in the afterlife than people who have had a relatively easy life, why does God allow (through fate) certain people to suffer so much more than others? Allegedly God is just. How is that just? The only way this can be considered just is if those who suffer most get a reward in the afterlife, but it requires a lot of faith to believe what we cannot yet see.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

Some people go through hell and get better for it. Some just get bitter.
It's not so much how much we are given to handle, It's how we handle what we are given.
They say that that which does not kill you makes you stronger but I don't really agree, it can do just the opposite and make you weaker... it's up to you.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

are-people-who-suffer-most-really-more-spiritual

I don't equate the two at all. That sounds religious. These are from Mother Teresa: "There is something beautiful in seeing the poor accept their lot, to suffer it like Christ's Passion. The world gains much from their suffering." Also, "You are suffering like Christ on the cross. So Jesus must be kissing you."

 

[Trailblazer]

It is all about how we face life and what life gives us.

Do we treat all what we face with dull resignation, or do we embrace our challenges with radiant acquiescence?

Regards Tony

No everyone has the same capacities so not everyone can embrace our challenges with radiant acquiescence. To those whom much has been given, much is expected.

“From the exalted source, and out of the essence of His favor and bounty He hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according to its capacity and rank, this knowledge.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 262

 

[Trailblazer]

"suffer" meaning what?

What is the full meaning of suffer?

1 : to endure death, pain, or distress. 2 : to sustain loss or damage. 3 : to be subject to disability or handicap.

Suffer Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

[Trailblazer]

Some people go through hell and get better for it. Some just get bitter.
It's not so much how much we are given to handle, It's how we handle what we are given.
They say that that which does not kill you makes you stronger but I don't really agree, it can do just the opposite and make you weaker... it's up to you.

I agree in general but not everyone has the same capacity since not everyone was given a good start in life or the same capacities to deal with adversity, so I think we need to be careful not to make blanket statements since that can come off as judgmental.

 

[Link]

Salam

It's ugly oppression, but facing it can be beautiful and prove a lot about a person. Choosing if we are with oppressors or with the oppressed is a choice everyone has to make. Neutrality per hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) is saying to Oppressors they can do what they want without you caring, which makes you a partner in their crime.

And to God has forced the issue, stand with truthful, even with odds against them, and in oppressed state. Or chase the life of this world ignoring your duty. The latter has severe consequences.

It's ugly murdering, but martyrdom can be beautiful.

Sickness and diseases is ugly, but facing it can be beautiful.

Patience can be more beautiful then anything in this world and so life is short, it passes away, and what we gain from this trial is either infinite reward or infinite punishment, making life and this pressure of time infinitely meaningful.

 

[Quagmire]

Some people go through hell and get better for it. Some just get bitter.
It's not so much how much we are given to handle, It's how we handle what we are given.
They say that that which does not kill you makes you stronger but I don't really agree, it can do just the opposite and make you weaker... it's up to you.

^This ^

 

[Secret Chief]

What is the full meaning of suffer?

1 : to endure death, pain, or distress. 2 : to sustain loss or damage. 3 : to be subject to disability or handicap.

Suffer Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

In that case, no.

 

[Trailblazer]

^This ^

True, but not everyone has the same capacity to handle what they are given.
This is what so many people don't understand.

 

[Heyo]

PART 1:

If religious people are going to make claims, I think they should be able to back up their claims with evidence.

Are people who suffer most really more spiritual?

There is plenty of statistical evidence for that. People with a high standard of living and social security tend to be less religious. Just look at the industrialized world. Lowest rate of religion in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, etc. (The US is an outlier as they don't have the security the rest of the industrialized world has.)
The highest rates of religiosity are found in very poor and political insecure countries.

Do they have a better character?

Nope. The opposite is the case. High religiosity seems to coincide with high criminality. But it would be jumping to conclusions to see causation where is only correlation. Religiosity may be neutral towards criminality and the poor conditions are what cause the connection.

 

[Quagmire]

True, but not everyone has the same capacity to handle what they are given.
This is what so many people don't understand.

That may be true, but when it comes down to it I think we're all left with the same choice:
We can choose to respond to hardship with anger and self pity, or we can face it with acceptance, humility, and eventually empathy.

That's assuming we actually have a choice about any of this, which I like to think we do.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is plenty of statistical evidence for that. People with a high standard of living and social security tend to be less religious.

Nope. The opposite is the case. High religiosity seems to coincide with high criminality.

You are correct about religiosity, but I was not referring to religiosity, I was referring to spirituality.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Are people who suffer most really more spiritual?

We are more contemplative, not more 'Spiritual' unless by spiritual you mean contemplative. We introspect. This can be good or bad. Also experience with pain makes it more likely someone will go against the popular routine and be willing to stick out. This can be good or bad.

Do they have a better character?

Character is like work. It hurts, and it requires practice. You can get better at it, stronger; so it doesn't hurt. But simply experiencing pain will not make you extraordinarily good, just as getting beaten up won't make you tougher. Or so I think.

Conversely, are people who have had a relatively easy life lacking in character and spirituality?

Unfortunately (because it makes me jealous to say this) sometimes having a relatively easy life can be good for a person's character. If you know what good life is like that is a real value, but if all you know is grey and dirty and boring and stressful or anxious then that is not a great value. I think that a person needs a good childhood. There isn't any way around that. If your childhood is bad then everything is harder including improving your character. There is no rule, however. Good kids can come from bad parents (or no parents) and bad kids from great parents.

Will those who suffer most in this life be better off in the afterlife?

That is not for me to answer, but I want the life that I live to shine even if no one cares. I have found that I have limits to how much trouble I can handle, and if problems are too much for me I lose my character. It is a bit like being made of cardboard. I can hold some weight, but I shouldn't get wet or be near open flame or have too many boxes stacked on top.

 

[Trailblazer]

That may be true, but when it comes down to it I think we're all left with the same choice:
We can choose to respond to hardship with anger and self pity, or we can face it with acceptance, humility, and eventually empathy.

That's assuming we actually have a choice about any of this, which I like to think we do.

It is a choice because we all have free will to choose, but not everyone is able to make the same choices because everyone is different.

Free will is the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose one thing or another. Given the wide array of the differences between people, not everyone is able to face hardships with with acceptance, humility, and eventually empathy.

I don't think we should judge people and how they respond to hardships. Nobody can know the life of another person unless they have walked a mile in their moccasins.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that a person needs a good childhood. There isn't any way around that. If your childhood is bad then everything is harder including improving your character.

I agree, and therein lies the problem if people judge other people for how they respond to adversity, not knowing what they had to endure in childhood and adulthood, how hard it is just to live life. Only God knows what anyone has had to endure, so only God can judge.