Are People Today More Moral than God and Jesus?

[Skwim]

Sure looks like it. That is if one believes slavery is immoral. For those of you who don't, you're excused to go and attend your Bund meeting.

"In contemporary times, slavery is almost universally reviled; while human trafficking and similar practices are still far too common, people generally no longer argue that human beings should be owned like property."

Both the Old and the New Testaments have instructions regarding slaves which contemporary Jews and Christians generally disregard, and which Christian apologists frequently attempt to play down or deny."​

But the question remains, why does god condone slavery at all? Even Jesus acknowledges the practice and does not condemn it.

Matthew 18:25-35
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

Luke 12:41-47
47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.​

OLD TESTAMENT SLAVERY SCRIPTURE

Leviticus 25:44-46
44As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.

Exodus 21:2-6
2If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 4If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

Exodus 21:20-21
20If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.​

______________________________________________________


THE NEW TESTAMENT SLAVERY SCRIPTURE

"The New Testament makes no condemnation of slavery and does no more than admonish slaves to be obedient and their masters not to be unfair. Paul, or whoever wrote the epistles, at no time suggested there was anything wrong with slavery."


Ephesians 6:5-9:
"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Colossians 4:1:
"Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

1 Timothy 6:1-3
"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"
​

(Quoted remarks from Rationalwiki)


So what's going on? Why isn't there at least an amendment in the back of the Bible telling the reader to disregard those pieces of scripture demonstrating an acceptance of slavery? But in as much as there isn't, and one is instructed to follow scripture, why aren't Christians condoning slavery? Or are you secret condoners?


.

 

[idav]

One of the major points in the NT, coming from the character Jesus, is sort of a discredit of the OT and its rules for laws and punishment. Jesus goes, don't punish unless you have never sinned yourself. One of the main themes of the NT is that we have become more knowledgeable over time as Jesus demonstrates over and over calling out hypocracy and bigotry several times even in his closest followers.

So you ask how we have a right to take it further with slavery. I don't think Jesus was wrong about slavery, he illuminated the subject enough to say slaves are human and have just as right to be master, so in a way he did not agree with the concept of slave master to begin with. He washed his own apostles feet there was tremendous humility shown as examples.

 

[Valjean]

Certainly many are more moral than God.
Jesus -- I'm not so sure.

 

[George-ananda]

Are People Today More Moral than God and Jesus?

I'll go with 'No'. The Bible you refer to was a product of its time. In two thousand years we will probably be labelled 'immoral' by their future standards.

These OPs are like; the Bible is the word of God and look how this doesn't square with reason so God is bad. I see the error in the premise being that we should take the Bible as the actual words of God and not as a product of its time..

 

[psychoslice]

I would have to say yes.

 

[Father Heathen]

"God" as portrayed in the bible? Yes. But that reflects more upon the savages of the time than it does upon any actual god.

 

[Aštra’el]

I do feel that the greatest and most powerful things about collective human Nature are embodied by this ultimate supreme God. YHWH (as depicted in Abrahamic lore) is the epitome of ultimate Creation, ultimate Destruction, and ultimate Order over ultimate Chaos... the ultimate deific archetype.

 

[Perditus]

Are People Today More Moral than God and Jesus?

No.

 

[Skwim]

One of the major points in the NT, coming from the character Jesus, is sort of a discredit of the OT and its rules for laws and punishment.

In the sense that if he doesn't mention and approve of them they're no longer relevant.

So you ask how we have a right to take it further with slavery. I don't think Jesus was wrong about slavery, he illuminated the subject enough to say slaves are human and have just as right to be master, so in a way he did not agree with the concept of slave master to begin with.

Not making sense.

Are People Today More Moral than God and Jesus?

I'll go with 'No'. The Bible you refer to was a product of its time. In two thousand years we will probably be labelled 'immoral' by their future standards.

So the Bible can't be relied on to tell the truth about god. Got it.

These OPs are like; the Bible is the word of God and look how this doesn't square with reason so God is bad.

"These"?? In any case why wouldn't this be the situation? Are you claiming that we shouldn't be characterizing god by what one reads in the Bible, but what, fashion him into the kind of god we need?

I see the error in the premise being that we should take the Bible as the actual words of God and not as a product of its time..

And what you see as an error others would call a grave mistake. Obviously my OP isn't directed toward the George-ananda's of the world, but those who regard the Bible as filled with truth.

"God" as portrayed in the bible? Yes. But that reflects more upon the savages of the time than it does upon any actual god.

So you believe that god isn't accurately portrayed in the Bible. Is there anything else about the god of the Bible that doesn't square with the truth? And, of course, the follow up question has to be, How do you know?


.

 

[Sunstone]

In my opinion, civilization is a thin veneer. I'd wager that most people today who oppose slavery do so merely because they have been taught from an early age to think of slavery as bad, and not because they have any deeply rooted understanding of its evils.

If a slick public relations firm or conservative think tank were to repackage slavery under a new name, and as some kind of exciting new job opportunity, then it would probably get support overnight from at least a third of the population. That's my guess. And so I wonder at the notion that we are more moral today than folks two or three thousand years ago simply because our culture does not, for the time being, condone slavery in its most obvious forms.

 

[arthra]

I think it's more likely that the origin of slavery was not in scripture...but it was almost universally practised until recently...per wikipedia:

Evidence of slavery predates written records, and has existed in many cultures.[2] Graves dating to 8000 BC in Egypt may show the enslavement of a San-like tribe.[dubious – discuss][Capoid remains not found this far north][113] Slavery is rare among hunter-gatherer populations. Mass slavery also requires economic surpluses and a high population density to be viable. Due to these factors, the practice of slavery would have only proliferated after the invention of agriculture during the Neolithic Revolution about 11,000 years ago.[114]


In the Bible there there were ways of ameliorating slavery...for instance the Year of Jubilee and there were cetain provision introduced to reduce the conditions of slavery...

You shall count off seven Sabbaths of years, seven times seven years; and there shall be to you the days of seven Sabbaths of years, even forty-nine years. Then you shall sound the loud trumpet on the tenth day of the seventh month. On the Day of Atonement you shall sound the trumpet throughout all your land. You shall make the fiftieth year holy, and proclaim liberty throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee to you; and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family. That fiftieth year shall be a jubilee to you. In it you shall not sow, neither reap that which grows of itself, nor gather from the undressed vines. For it is a jubilee; it shall be holy to you. You shall eat of its increase out of the field. In this Year of Jubilee each of you shall return to his property.

- Leviticus 25:8-13


The Christian abolitionist movement along with Quakers opposed slavery and worked hard to abolish it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers_in_the_Abolition_Movement

The same can be said for the Islamic dispensation...even though slavery was widespread there were conditions for reducing slavery.

How Islam moderated slavery
Islam's approach to slavery added the idea that freedom was the natural state of affairs for human beings and in line with this it limited the opportunities to enslave people, commended the freeing of slaves and regulated the way slaves were treated:

• Islam greatly limited those who could be enslaved and under what circumstances (although these restrictions were often evaded)
• Islam treated slaves as human beings as well as property
• Islam banned the mistreatment of slaves - indeed the tradition repeatedly stresses the importance of treating slaves with kindness and compassion
• Islam allowed slaves to achieve their freedom and made freeing slaves a virtuous act
• Islam barred Muslims from enslaving other Muslims

Source:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml

In the Baha'i Faith slavery is forbidden.

Among the specific laws clearly laid down in the Cause of Bahá'u'lláh is the law prohibiting slavery.

(SOW - Star of the West, Star of the West - 4)

In His Tablet to Queen Victoria Baha'u'llah wrote:

We make mention of thee for the sake of God, and desire that thy name may be exalted through thy remembrance of God, the Creator of earth and heaven. He, verily, is witness unto that which I say. We have been informed that thou hast forbidden the trading in slaves, both men and women. This, verily, is what God hath enjoined in this wondrous Revelation.

- Suriy-i-Haykal

• 
  
  
  

 

[psychoslice]

If Jesus lived today and walked into a synagogue knocking tables over and whipping people, he would be taken away and charged, and maybe put into a mental ward.

 

[Father Heathen]

So you believe that god isn't accurately portrayed in the Bible. Is there anything else about the god of the Bible that doesn't square with the truth? And, of course, the follow up question has to be, How do you know?
.

It's easier to say what god wouldn't be/do than would god would be/do. One would assume such a powerful being would also be vastly intelligent, thus one could also assume such a being would not do unintelligent things, like demanding that a random group of hominids take rocks and smash each others' skulls for completely arbitrary and trivial reasons.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sure looks like it. That is if one believes slavery is immoral. For those of you who don't, you're excused to attend your Bund meeting.

"In contemporary times, slavery is almost universally reviled; while human trafficking and similar practices are still far too common, people generally no longer argue that human beings should be owned like property."

Both the Old and the New Testaments have instructions regarding slaves which contemporary Jews and Christians generally disregard, and which Christian apologists frequently attempt to play down or deny."​

But the question remains, why does god condone slavery at all? Even Jesus acknowledges the practice and does not condemn it.

Matthew 18:25-35
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. God did a lot of talking but didn't do a lot of doing. You can reprimand him on his orders but in this scripture, he didn't do anything.

Luke 12:41-47
47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. This case, the consequence was from the people's actions. So, basically it's the consequence of people's actions that punished them. God just a personification of justice and the devil of sin.​

OLD TESTAMENT SLAVERY SCRIPTURE

Leviticus 25:44-46
44As for your male and female slaves whom you may have—you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 45Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession. 46You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another. What did god do though? I think the issue is when someone doesn't do what god commands, then he punishes them in some cases. Others it's just cause and affect. Unless scripture like other mythological text have ways of expressing our mishaps, actions, etc through personification of these concepts, sins, and blessings.

Exodus 21:2-6
2If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. 4If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. 5But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ 6then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

Exodus 21:20-21
20If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property. What were the laws of that day, though? Was it the law that if someone strictures his male or female slave he would be punished? In some case, I think god is just telling people what their laws of their land are. Reminding them that their responsibilities to their land, their wives, slaves (which is legal in other countries as was in America), and so forth.

Also, slaves wasn't about capturing back then. A slave was usually someone who ran away from capture, a veteran of war who needed a job, and things of that nature. Like you see prisoners working on the side of the road for the community service duties. We just don't use the word slave to depict that deed. ​

______________________________________________________


THE NEW TESTAMENT SLAVERY SCRIPTURE

"The New Testament makes no condemnation of slavery and does no more than admonish slaves to be obedient and their masters not to be unfair. Paul, or whoever wrote the epistles, at no time suggested there was anything wrong with slavery."


Ephesians 6:5-9:
"Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Colossians 4:1:
"Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

1 Timothy 6:1-3
"Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"
​

(Quoted remarks from Rationalwiki)


So what's going on? Why isn't there at least an amendment in the back of the Bible telling the reader to disregard those pieces of scripture demonstrating an acceptance of slavery? But in as much as there isn't, and one is instructed to follow scripture, why aren't Christians condoning slavery? Or are you secret condoners?


.

Well, god didn't kill anyone. He ordered people to kill (Israelite). People suffered consequences from their actions (Lot's wife turning to salt, I think it was, for looking back). No Charleston Heston movies in the Bible.

What does the Bible define as a slave?

What I don't care for is that murder happened in the name of god and because of god's directives. Rather than him doing it himself. That would be odd to see someone come out of the sky like the movies and shoot thunder bults to kill someone. I don't feel life has changed and its physics as well in the past 3,000 years; so, it's a people thing. Has nothing to do with god doing anything. To many believers, god is in the heart. When people go against god-turn their face to violence, look in god's eye, kill people, then that's a sin.

Unless, well, god commands the killing then it's no longer a sin. Don't understand that.

Jesus, on the other hand, is said to relieve the laws of Moses by summing up the commandments. What's interesting is that summing up the commandments doesn't mean you don't follow them. That's like doing a research summary paper, summing the source but forgetting to cite the resources because they aren't needed given it's just a summery.

One of those things.

Whose more moral? Jesus. Only because he is human and he has a cool walk. God is life. Can't see how you can make god moral, really. If he is every where and everything, both good and bad, as in Psalms, why expect him to be more or less moral than we are?

 

[fantome profane]

In my opinion, civilization is a thin veneer. I'd wager that most people today who oppose slavery do so merely because they have been taught from an early age to think of slavery as bad, and not because they have any deeply rooted understanding of its evils.

If a slick public relations firm or conservative think tank were to repackage slavery under a new name, and as some kind of exciting new job opportunity, then it would probably get support overnight from at least a third of the population. That's my guess. And so I wonder at the notion that we are more moral today than folks two or three thousand years ago simply because our culture does not, for the time being, condone slavery in its most obvious forms.

I disagree. I think that people need to be convinced that slavery is a moral good. In order for people to believe that they need to be conditioned, there needs to be a complex social structure enforcing that idea. But the idea that slavery is wrong is intuitive.

Yes, a slick marketing campaign could convince people that slavery is right, but it would require a great deal of work, not just positive repackaging but also severe censorship of any dissenting idea . And it could not be done overnight. Convincing people that slavery is moral is going against human nature. It is like pushing water uphill, it can be done, but it requires constant effort, stop for a moment and the natural flow will reassert itself.

 

[Aštra’el]

Let us not forget that the idea of slavery being "evil" or "wrong" or "immoral" is completely subjective.

 

[atanu]

Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

.

Does it not indicate that one's circumstances are due to past actions and that scriptures try to guide our present?

 

[Skwim]

It's easier to say what god wouldn't be/do than would god would be/do. One would assume such a powerful being would also be vastly intelligent, thus one could also assume such a being would not do unintelligent things, like demanding that a random group of hominids take rocks and smash each others' skulls for completely arbitrary and trivial reasons.

So your answer would be, because god is vastly intelligent his approval of slavery has to be moral, and the good thing to do. And it would be wrong to oppose it. Hmmmmmm. Long live slavery?

Does it not indicate that one's circumstances are due to past actions

As a determinist this does have a familiar ring.

Does it not indicate that . . . scriptures try to guide our present?

I don't know. Are all scriptures supposed to "guide our present"? If so then I guess we shouldn't be complaining about slavery, and should what, embrace it or just accept it?


.

 

[David1967]

No

 

[idav]

Not making sense.

.

Jesus set the example that a master should be a servant. Showed ultimate humility doing what a servant would do, the apostles tried to refuse, thats how shocked they were.
John 13
12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13 “You call me ‘Teacher and ‘Lord, and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.