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Are near death experiences evidence of afterlife?

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
I know that many people have said that this is all nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Although I myself am a skeptic, I also have to consider the alternate possibility that there could be an afterlife. When a person is in a hyper conscious state near death and they are walking around in some beautiful landscape in their near death experience, then this is the motor functions of the brain active.

So if that is the case, then why don't we see the patient moving his/her arms and legs on the hospital bed as though he/she is walking? This would imply that the person really is in another realm walking around. However, I need to hear the skeptic side to this as well. So if there are any skeptics, go ahead and give an explanation to this.

Furthermore, when the patient is in this hyper conscious state and is supposedly able to walk, talk, etc., then why is it that he/she does not feel any pain near death and does not report back screaming in pain during his/her near death experience?

Also, what about all the other evidence such as evidence for psi, memories of past lives, psychic abilities, etc. and the opinions of skeptics on this topic?
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
So if that is the case, then why don't we see the patient moving his/her arms and legs on the hospital bed as though he/she is walking?
We can "walk" in our heads without moving our limbs. We do it every night when we dream and we do it during hallucinations.

I have difficulty understanding why these particular hallucinations are considered evidence of an afterlife.
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
We can "walk" in our heads without moving our limbs. We do it every night when we dream and we do it during hallucinations.

I have difficulty understanding why these particular hallucinations are considered evidence of an afterlife.
But that's just an image of you walking. People who have near death experiences actually report genuinely walking. Furthermore, certain areas of the brain are on while others are turned off during dreams and hallucinations. But the entire brain is in a hyperactive state based on a study with 9 rats near death. They saw that their entire brains were in a hyperactive state. So if this hyperactivity really was the cause of ndes, then we should see the patients moving their arms and legs on the hospital bed.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
But that's just an image of you walking.
That doesn't seem like a reasonable description.

MattMVS7 said:
People who have near death experiences actually report genuinely walking.
But as we know they didn't walk, their legs were in a hospital bed the whole time. When I dream I experience walking and yet I never leave my bed. I'm not sure that it's different.

MattMVS7 said:
But the entire brain is in a hyperactive state based on a study with 9 rats near death. They saw that their entire brains were in a hyperactive state. So if this hyperactivity really was the cause of ndes, then we should see the patients moving their arms and legs on the hospital bed.
I would have to see these studies before I could comment.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I know that many people have said that this is all nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Although I myself am a skeptic, I also have to consider the alternate possibility that there could be an afterlife. When a person is in a hyper conscious state near death and they are walking around in some beautiful landscape in their near death experience, then this is the motor functions of the brain active.

The conscious mind is an enigma to science....the more science explores the workings of the brain, the more complex it proves itself to be.
Here is an explanation for the NDE's experienced by some people.....

"The Near-Death Experience—Proof of Immortality?

“The soul of man is immortal and imperishable.”—Plato, Greek philosopher, c. 428-348 B.C.E.

“Such harmony is in immortal souls.”—William Shakespeare, English playwright, 1564-1616.

“The soul is indestructible . . . its activity will continue through eternity.”—Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German poet and dramatist, 1749-1832.

“Our personality . . . survives in the next life.”—Thomas Edison, American inventor, 1847-1931.

FOR thousands of years man has believed that he has inborn immortality. The ancient Egyptian rulers filled their tombs with the comforts and luxuries of life so that the body would be well served in its reunion with the ka, or soul.
Thus man has tried to convince himself that the certainty of death is annulled by the survival of an immortal soul or spirit. Others, like the English poet Keats, want to believe but doubt. As Keats wrote: “I long to believe in immortality . . . I wish to believe in immortality.” What do you believe about man’s supposed immortality?

In Keats’ words we perhaps have a simple clue to the conclusions that are being drawn by some doctors and psychiatrists, as well as people who have undergone an NDE (near-death experience). For example, in tests carried out by physician and professor of medicine Dr. Michael Sabom on those who had an NDE, “a definite decrease in the fear of death and a definite increase in the belief in an afterlife were reported by the vast majority of persons with an NDE.”—Italics ours.

To what conclusion did psychiatrist Dr. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross arrive after checking out over a thousand cases of NDE? In her book On Children and Death she stated: “And so it is with death . . . the end before another beginning. Death is the great transition.” She adds: “With further research and further publications, more and more people will know rather than believe that our physical body is truly only the cocoon, the outer shell of the human being. Our inner, true self, the ‘butterfly,’ is immortal and indestructible and is freed at the moment we call death.”
Dr. Kenneth Ring, professor of psychology and author of Life at Death, draws the following conclusion: “I do believe . . . that we continue to have a conscious existence after our physical death.” Then he adds: “My own understanding of these near-death experiences leads me to regard them as ‘teachings.’ They are, it seems to me, by their nature, revelatory experiences. . . . In this respect, [near-death] experiences are akin to mystical or religious experiences [Italics ours.]. . . . From this point of view, the voices we have heard in this book [Life at Death] are those of prophets preaching a religion of universal brotherhood.”

A Contrasting Viewpoint

But what do other investigators say? How do they explain these near-death and out-of-body experiences? Psychologist Ronald Siegel sees them in a different light. “These experiences are common to a wide variety of arousal in the human brain, including LSD, sensory deprivation and extreme stress. The stress is producing the projection of the images into the brain. They are the same for most people because our brains are all wired similarly to store information, and these experiences are basically electrical read-outs of this wiring.”

Dr. Richard Blacher of Tufts University School of Medicine, Boston, wrote: “I suggest that people who undergo these ‘death experiences’ are suffering from a hypoxic [oxygen deficiency] state, during which they try to deal psychologically with the anxieties provoked by the medical procedures and talk. . . . We are dealing here with the fantasy of death, not with death itself. This fantasy [within the patient’s psyche, or mind] is most appealing, since it solves several human concerns at one time. . . . The physician must be especially wary of accepting religious belief as scientific data.”

Siegel indicates another interesting point about the “visions” of the nearly dead: “As in hallucinations, the visions of the afterlife are suspiciously like this world, according to the accounts provided by dying patients themselves.” For example, a 63-year-old man who had spent much of his life in Texas related his “vision” as follows: “I was suspended over a fence. . . . On one side of the fence it was extremely scraggly territory, mesquite brush . . . On the other side of the fence was the most beautiful pasture scene I guess I have ever seen . . . [It was] a three- or four-strand barbed-wire fence.” Did this patient actually see barbed wire in “heaven” or in the realm beyond death? It is obvious that these images were based on his life in Texas and recalled from his own brain data bank—unless we are being asked to believe that there is barbed wire “on the other side”!

In fact, so many NDEs are closely related to the patients’ experiences and background in life that it is unreasonable to believe that they are having a glimpse of a realm beyond death. For example, do those NDE patients who see a “being of light” see the same person regardless of whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Muslim? In his book Life After Life, Dr. Raymond Moody explains: “The identification of the being varies from individual to individual and seems to be largely a function of the religious background, training, or beliefs of the person involved. Thus, most of those who are Christians . . . identify the light as Christ . . . A Jewish man and woman identified the light as an ‘angel.’”
At a strictly scientific level, Dr. Ring admits: “I remind my audiences that what I have studied are near-death experiences, not after-death experiences. . . . There is obviously no guarantee either that these experiences will continue to unfold in a way consistent with their beginnings or indeed that they will continue at all. That, I believe, is the correct scientific position to take on the significance of these experiences.”

Common Sense and the Bible

As for death, psychologist Siegel gives his opinion: “Death, in terms of its physical sequels, is no mystery. After death the body disintegrates and is reabsorbed into the inanimate component of the environment. The dead human loses both his life and his consciousness. . . . The most logical guess is that consciousness shares the same fate as that of the corpse. Surprisingly, this commonsense view is not the prevalent one, and the majority of mankind . . . continue to exert their basic motivation to stay alive and formulate a myriad of beliefs concerning man’s survival after death.”

About 3,000 years ago the same “commonsense view” was given by a king who wrote: “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [mankind’s common grave], the place to which you are going.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.
Certainly the Bible leaves no room for considering near-death experiences as a prelude to life after death. King Solomon’s description of death and its effects has no hints of an immortal soul surviving into some other form of conscious existence. The dead “are conscious of nothing at all.”
Of course, those who practice spiritism and communication with the “dead” are only too pleased to have the apparent support of hundreds of near-death experiences. Psychologist Siegel quotes one lecturer on the paranormal, or supernatural, as saying that “if we are to examine the evidence for an afterlife honestly and dispassionately we must free ourselves from the tyranny of common sense.” (Psychology Today, January 1981) Interestingly, this same lecturer “argues that ghosts and apparitions are indeed hallucinations, but they are projected telepathically from the minds of dead people to those of the living!” That certainly does not agree with Solomon’s conclusion that the dead are dead and know nothing.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Near-Death Experiences—How Explained?

How, then, can all the near-death and out-of-body experiences be explained? Basically, there are at least two possibilities—one is that presented by some psychologists to the effect that the still-active brain of the near-dead person recalls and forms images under the stresses of the near-death experience. These are then interpreted by some patients and investigators to be glimpses of life after death. In fact, as we have seen from the Bible, such cannot be the case, for man does not have an immortal soul, and there is no such thing as life after death as perceived in these cases.

But there is a second possibility to be taken into account that may explain some of these experiences. It is a factor that most investigators will not admit. For example, Dr. Moody explained in his book Life After Life that “rarely, someone . . . has proposed demonic explanations of near-death experiences, suggesting that the experiences were doubtless directed by inimical forces.” However, he rejects the idea since he feels that instead of the patients’ feeling more godly after the experience, “Satan would presumably tell his servants to follow a course of hate and destruction.” He adds, “He certainly has failed miserably—as far as I can tell—to make persuasive emissaries for his program!”
In this respect Dr. Moody makes a grave mistake in two ways. First, Satan would not necessarily promulgate hate and destruction through these experiences. Why not? Because the Bible states: “Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.” (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15) If he can perpetuate the basic lie that he has always maintained—“You positively will not die”—he can do it through the apparently most innocent and enlightening means.—Genesis 3:4, 5.

Second, he has not failed miserably to make persuasive emissaries for his program of lies about the immortal soul! To the contrary, he now has doctors, psychologists and scientists fully supporting the lie that he has promulgated through priests and philosophers down through the ages! How appropriate is Paul’s summation of the situation when he wrote: “If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through”!—2 Corinthians 4:3, 4.
Nevertheless, as we have seen, some psychologists believe that man has a conscious existence after death. This personal interpretation of the meaning of near-death experiences obliges us to raise the following pertinent questions on behalf of those who believe the Bible: Is there any Biblical basis at all for saying that man has an immortal soul that abandons the body like a butterfly out of a cocoon? What about those texts in the Bible that use the words “soul” and “immortality”?" ('84 Awake article)
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
I heard near death your brain secretes a bunch of sweet sweet hallucinogens and you go on the maddest trip of your life.
 

The Transcended Omniverse

Well-Known Member
That doesn't seem like a reasonable description.

But as we know they didn't walk, their legs were in a hospital bed the whole time. When I dream I experience walking and yet I never leave my bed. I'm not sure that it's different.

I would have to see these studies before I could comment.
When you dream, you are obviously not using the motor functions of your brain. Because if you were, then you would be moving and getting out of bed like you said. Therefore, the only thing that can be experienced in your dreams is merely an image of you walking. So you are not actually walking. Just having a dream of you walking. The reason you cannot get up and actually walk in your dreams is because the motor functions of your brain are turned off.

But with ndes, the entire brain is active which would allow a person to move and walk around. So what I am saying here is that since the person walking around in the nde wasn't actually moving and walking around in the hospital bed, then it could be that he/she really was walking around in another realm. Furthermore, there is the difference in experience when it comes to walking in your dreams and walking in a nde.

The difference is that the experience of walking in a dream is nothing more than an image of you walking. You do not actually truly feel yourself walking like how you do in real life. But nde experiences are different in that the person truly feels that he/she was walking around. So what is the difference here? Why is it that the person feels he/she is truly walking in a nde, but only experiences an image of his/herself in a dream?

It would be because the person is only partly conscious in a dream while a nde offers a full waking conscious state that is even greater and more realistic than the waking state. Here is that study with the rats:

http://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/brain-metrics/could_a_final_surge_in
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
When you dream, you are obviously not using the motor functions of your brain. Because if you were, then you would be moving and getting out of bed like you said. Therefore, the only thing that can be experienced in your dreams is merely an image of you walking. So you are not actually walking. Just having a dream of you walking. The reason you cannot get up and actually walk in your dreams is because the motor functions of your brain are turned off.

But with ndes, the entire brain is active which would allow a person to move and walk around.
I see.

The motor functions are inhibited during sleep but that just means that the signals aren't sent down the motor neurones to muscles as far as I can tell. The regions of your brain that correspond to moving around are still active and during rem sleep are almost indistinguishable from waking states.

This is why sleep walkers can sleep walk.

MattMVS7 said:
Furthermore, there is the difference in experience when it comes to walking in your dreams and walking in a nde.

The difference is that the experience of walking in a dream is nothing more than an image of you walking. You do not actually truly feel yourself walking like how you do in real life. But nde experiences are different in that the person truly feels that he/she was walking around. So what is the difference here? Why is it that the person feels he/she is truly walking in a nde, but only experiences an image of his/herself in a dream?
I disagree. Everyone I have ever spoken to about dreams has reported experiences (including motion) that they failed to distinguish from waking life. This is why we rarely know we are dreaming.

Thanks for the link. Interesting thread.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In the strictest sense of "evidence", near death experiences could be considered evidence for an afterlife. However, for various reasons, they would be rather weak evidence.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
They are only evidence of an afterlife if there is an afterlife. Otherwise they are merely mental experiences.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
I know that many people have said that this is all nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Although I myself am a skeptic, I also have to consider the alternate possibility that there could be an afterlife. When a person is in a hyper conscious state near death and they are walking around in some beautiful landscape in their near death experience, then this is the motor functions of the brain active.

So if that is the case, then why don't we see the patient moving his/her arms and legs on the hospital bed as though he/she is walking? This would imply that the person really is in another realm walking around. However, I need to hear the skeptic side to this as well. So if there are any skeptics, go ahead and give an explanation to this.

Furthermore, when the patient is in this hyper conscious state and is supposedly able to walk, talk, etc., then why is it that he/she does not feel any pain near death and does not report back screaming in pain during his/her near death experience?

Also, what about all the other evidence such as evidence for psi, memories of past lives, psychic abilities, etc. and the opinions of skeptics on this topic?
you can convince your self of the evidence for anything once you get your standard for evidence low enough.
Interesting how painfully obvious it becomes that the "research" of believers looks much more like ratification than it does research.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Are near death experiences evidence of afterlife?

Definitely evidence (short of proof). The clarity and coherence of the experience in the absence of higher brain function, people knowing things not reasonable to have been learned through normal channels, the certainty of many experiencers, etc.. In a materialist world I would expect no higher mental functioning after major trauma to the brain and any hallucinations if there would be any at all would be unorganized. The best explanations is that the sudden increase in coherence is consciousness no longer going through the damaged physical brain.

But I think the strength of the Near Death Experience comes from its consideration along with other types of phenomena; spirit communication; appearances to loved ones; verifiable childhood reincarnation memories, ghostly and poltergeist phenomena, psychic abilities, and other several other areas of 'beyond the normal' phenomena dovetailing with the worldview espoused by spiritual masters particularly of the eastern/Vedic tradition.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They are only evidence of an afterlife if there is an afterlife. Otherwise they are merely mental experiences.
I would say what people experience in these are how the mind translates said experiences in a way the person can understand them. I'd hardly say that what they see or hear or feel is literally the nature of it. In other words, an "afterlife" is the stuff of mythology, but the *real* reality of what we are beyond just the mind can never be understood "as is" by the human mind. It always presents itself with that "mask" of the person's culture and so forth. Is there a prior and continuous existence of consciousness? I'd say yes. Is it literally streets of gold and seeing your dead puppy from when you were 12? I'd say not.

But I will challenge you on saying "merely mental experiences". Everything in this life is mental experiences, but these sorts of experiences of the mind blow the roof off ordinary mental experiences. They are leagues beyond 'mere mental experiences', being the peak states of consciousness in human experience. To me the normal crap we imagine about ourselves and the world as what is real and true is what is "mere", and quaint by comparison. :)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Are near death experiences evidence of afterlife?

Definitely evidence (short of proof). The clarity and coherence of the experience in the absence of higher brain function, people knowing things not reasonable to have been learned through normal channels, the certainty of many experiencers, etc.. In a materialist world I would expect no higher mental functioning after major trauma to the brain and any hallucinations if there would be any at all would be unorganized. The best explanations is that the sudden increase in coherence is consciousness no longer going through the damaged physical brain.
Anyone recounting an NDE has experienced higher brain function by the time they think about the NDE and reflect on it. There's no reason to expect that a dying brain would be a reliable judge of when the experience actually occurred.

But I think the strength of the Near Death Experience comes from its consideration along with other types of phenomena; spirit communication; appearances to loved ones; verifiable childhood reincarnation memories, ghostly and poltergeist phenomena, psychic abilities, and other several other areas of 'beyond the normal' phenomena dovetailing with the worldview espoused by spiritual masters particularly of the eastern/Vedic tradition.
One word you gave piqued my interest: verifiable? Please point us toward this verification.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
One word you gave piqued my interest: verifiable? Please point us toward this verification.
The phrase was 'verifiable childhood reincarnation memories'. This refers to children remembering their past lives and producing detailed information that can be checked/verified for accuracy (names, places, events). Dr. Ian Stevenson was the pioneer in this kind of study and now there are other of researchers.

Here's an example of what I am talking about; (from the Wikipedia article on Shanti Devi)

According to these accounts, when she was about four years old, she told her parents that her real home was in Mathura where her husband lived, about 145 km from her home in Delhi. Discouraged by her parents, she ran away from home at age six, trying to reach Mathura. Back home, she stated in school that she was married and had died ten days after having given birth to a child. Interviewed by her teacher and headmaster, she used words from the Mathura dialect and divulged the name of her merchant husband, "Kedar Nath". The headmaster located a merchant by that name in Mathura who had lost his wife, Lugdi Devi, nine years earlier, ten days after having given birth to a son. Kedar Nath traveled to Delhi, pretending to be his own brother, but Shanti Devi immediately recognized him and Lugdi Devi's son. As she knew several details of Kedar Nath's life with his wife, he was soon convinced that Shanti Devi was indeed the reincarnation of Lugdi Devi. When Mahatma Gandhi heard about the case, he met the child and set up a commission to investigate. The commission traveled with Shanti Devi to Mathura, arriving on November 15, 1935. There she recognized several family members, including the grandfather of Lugdi Devi. She found out that Kedar Nath had neglected to keep a number of promises he had made to Lugdi Devi on her deathbed. She then traveled home with her parents. The commission's report concluded that Shanti Devi was indeed the reincarnation of Lugdi Devi.[2]

Shanti Devi did not marry. She told her story again at the end of the 1950s, and once more in 1986 when she was interviewed by Ian Stevenson and K.S. Rawat. In this interview she also related her near death experiences when Lugdi Devi died.[1] K.S. Rawat continued his investigations in 1987, and the last interview took place only four days before her death on December 27, 1987.[7]
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
In the strictest sense of "evidence", near death experiences could be considered evidence for an afterlife. However, for various reasons, they would be rather weak evidence.
Yeah, anecdotal evidence is hardly the best; however, from what I've read of NDE the experiences they have an awful lot in common. What I've always found interesting are the reports of out of body NDEs where, after the person has regained consciousness is able to describe events, mostly near by, that took place while he was unconscious.
 

jeager106

Learning more about Jehovah.
Premium Member
I've read that NDEs are hallucinations brought on by different factors like
reaction to sedatives, low oxygen levels, trauma, other kinds of medications, etc.
I'd not bet on an afterlife based upon something so lacking in any form of evidence.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I know that many people have said that this is all nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Although I myself am a skeptic, I also have to consider the alternate possibility that there could be an afterlife. When a person is in a hyper conscious state near death and they are walking around in some beautiful landscape in their near death experience, then this is the motor functions of the brain active.

From what I've read NDEs aren't evidence of anything in particular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The phrase was 'verifiable childhood reincarnation memories'. This refers to children remembering their past lives and producing detailed information that can be checked/verified for accuracy (names, places, events). Dr. Ian Stevenson was the pioneer in this kind of study and now there are other of researchers.
Ah. You and I have different standards for "verifiable", then. Any "verifiable" information that a person gives about their claimed past lives - i.e. information that can be obtained by research to check - is necessarily not information that could only have been obtained by reincarnation.
 
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