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Are Muslims "Saved"?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by johnnys4life, Sep 3, 2004.

  1. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

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    This is a question for a Catholic person. I just wanted to know why the Catholic church considers Islamists to be "saved" when they do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God or in the trinity. As I understand it, according to most Christian theology, belief is the whole basis for being saved. Does the Catholic church view salvation differently then?
     
  2. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    "Saved" from what?
     
  3. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

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    From eternal judgement, Maize. You can't go to heaven unless you are perfect, because God is holy, and since none of us are, many Christians (myself included) believe that you have to become united with Christ, who was perfect, to be saved.
     
  4. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Why is there any question about whether or not Muslims will be saved if their idea of salvation is a different one from yours? Maybe they will be 'saved' according to their precepts, as you will according to yours?
     
  5. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Why are you singling out Muslims? If what you say is true, wouldn't all of us who aren't Christian be condemned to eternal damnation, not just Muslims?


    edit
     
  6. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Maize, hold my hand! It's looking like I'm in for eternal damnation! *whimpers quietly*
     
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  7. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    It's OK FeathersinHair, there is no hell or eternal damnation in my world. ;)
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    johnnys4life,

    Hoo boy. An observation first.....

    THIS is a important issue in your life, why? It speaks a lot about you and your faith that almost 50% of your posts have been about the eternal damnation of another faith that does not believe the same way as you do. I pray you find love in your heart to overcome this problem.

    OK, that out of the way......

    Well, I can't sugarcoat this........ I don't think you even understand your OWN view of salvation.
    Let's break down what you believe:

    You can't go to heaven unless you are perfect Ok, I agree.

    and since none of us are (perfect) Ok, we agree again.

    many Christians (myself included) believe that you have to become united with Christ, who was perfect, to be saved.
    You already said that NONE of us are perfect.
    To be united in Christ perfects us?
    You, as a believer in Christ are a perfect being NOW?.......NO? Why, then, should your death change that? Are you saved by your faith or by your faith AND bodily death?

    On almost every level........ being "saved" is a one time process in the Protestant world....... say the "sinner's prayer" and you've got a ticket into heaven, right then and there (generally speaking w/BAgain and Indie/Fundie/Evangel Christians).

    Catholics believe your salvation is a process....... not earned by works, but more than just faith alone.......... even the DEVIL believes in Jesus....... faith without works is DEAD faith.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    1 John 1
    8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

    The Apostle was talking to and about CHRISTIANS! BELIEVERS!

    Don't deceive yourself johnnys girl........ your faith does not make you sinless........ and the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross seems to have failed in your view....... your faith HAS NOT saved you....... you (according to your Bible) still have sin (even after accepting Christ into your life) so how can you get into heaven?

    Have fun!
     
  10. DontFearMe

    DontFearMe Member

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    Number one, there is no such word as "Islamist." This is a stupid word made up by some stupid person to name the followers of the religion of Islam. We are called muslims which means surrender to God. Gosh, media propaganda really does work with people.
     
  11. OfPeace

    OfPeace Guest

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    You know who you surrender to DontFearMe (a Muslim)? You surrender to your societal leaders, that's who. These are your pillars of society and Islam: ambitious men seeking to be masters: to control a group of people, to advantage their ego and their life styles (and NOT THE PEOPLE.) A true Muslim submits to other peoples' opinions. That's why Muslims cannot live with anyone having a different faith and being of a different race (than Arab.)

    The god of Islam is not the Christian God, nor the Jewish God. When a Muslim refers to his god, he should refer to Allah. Don't forget, Arab Earth is the cause of Islam.

    MUSLIMS WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN. Muslims believe it a right to murder. Muslims believe it a right to deceive. Muslims have to be prejudice and racist. Muslims have to pursue their fleshy desires at any cost.

    Are Muslims my enemy? Yes, they are inherently the enemy of anyone not Muslim. Muslims want to kill or enslave anyone who is not a Muslim. Muslims have no separation between religion and government. They want Islam to be the government, enacted by the men whom I mentioned earlier.

    Here are your choices everybody:
    Christianity-love, peace, heaven
    Islam-hate, destruction, hell
     
  12. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Wait, don't we have other choices and sweeping generalizations to pick from?

    Christianity- Prefers Coca Cola.
    Judaism- Prefers Pepsi.
    Islam- Is a Mr. Pibb fan.
    Native American- Seems to enjoy Butterfingers.
    Humanism- Likes Jolly Ranchers, to the exclusion of all other candy.
    Scientology- Supports only Grilled Cheese sandwiches.
    Satanism- Is a salad fan.
    Agnostisism- Tootsie Rolls.
    Paganism- No, Tootsie Pops!
    Atheism- Likes dogs.
    Unitarian Universalism- Likes cats.

    I'm sorry, 'Eastern Beliefs' and 'Other Religions Not Specified.' I ran out of random generalizations before I could get to you! :(
     
  13. OfPeace

    OfPeace Guest

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    When do we draw the line? When they preach in their holy places to hate, kill, non-Muslims? When they acknowledge the government of the country in which they live? When?

    I just hope that a common aim toward furthering our intelligence, and living in peace and equality, averts us from having to draw the line.
     
  14. OfPeace

    OfPeace Guest

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    Sorry, that is: When they do not acknowledge the government of the country in which they live?
     
  15. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    The funny thing is, I've been in holy places where the clergy has preached that we should 'hate everyone not like ourselves'. I've been a member of those congregations, and hearing that is what drove me away from Christianity in the first place. (The kind people on this forum are reminding me of what I loved about Christianity, and what I still love about it.)

    What right does one have to condemn Islam, or any other faith, for percieved intolerance, when the Presbyterian church is saying the same thing down the street?

    And, yes, the same people were trying to teach that one should kill all non-Christians and to take the 'law of God before that of the government'.
     
  16. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

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    It isn't important. I wanted to know why any Christian religion would believe that any non-Christian religion was on the same path as them. That makes no sense to me. I am interested in finding out about Catholicism, and that is all. If it's taken me a lot of posts to ask this question, that's because I've never gotten the answers I was looking for, and I hate giving up. As soon as I saw your post about how Catholics believe Muslims are saved, that just seemed odd to me and I wanted to know why. For you to imply that equals prejudice on my part shows that we have quite a miscommunication going on here.

    Secondly, summarizing my religion's viewpoint is not working out for me here, so I'll give you the long version. Yes, I do believe that faith in Christ, if it is real, will cause a person to do good works because of a change in heart, which has to come first. If a person does not do good works, their faith is not real. Yes, I believe that this true faith will save and make a person perfect, not in this life but in the life to come, and I agree that it is a process. But the faith has to come first, or what good are good works to God? He said that the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination. I can look up that verse if you want to know it, right now I am trying to make this as quick as I can.

    Your religion and mine are not all that different. Some protestants do believe that once you say the prayer you are saved forever. That is not what the Bible teaches, and that is not how I was taught. But almost all Christian denominations agree that without belief in Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross, there is no salvation for anyone, Muslim or Non-Muslim alike. His death was to take the punishment for our sins so that we could be saved, that was the whole purpose. So I still don't understand why Catholics should differ on this. But it looks like I'm not going to get an answer on that.
     
  17. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

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    I am concerned with how this discussion is quickly turning into a Muslim bashing tirade. That was not my intention. I had a very specific question concerning Catholicism. I am not that concerned with what Muslims do or do not believe. I am not and never will be a Muslim. I AM concerned with what the Catholic church believes, as I see a lot of good in Catholicism and want to see if it all makes sense.
     
  18. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

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    If any Christian church is teaching hate, then it is obviously not really a Christian church. That isn't what Christianity really is. The word Christian means "little Christ". And what Christ taught was that we should love and pray for everyone, even our enemies. He said to bless, pray for, and do good to those who persecute and use us. Jesus himself prayed for those who were murdering Him while he was dying. He said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
    So anyone who preaches hatred is against Christ, because hate does not come from God. That person is anti-Christ.
     
  19. OfPeace

    OfPeace Guest

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    Christians receive salvation because Jesus is the One who will judge them in the after life. He promised that if we made an effort to follow his teachings and believe in Him, our sins will be forgiven. Otherwise, non-Christians will have God judge them, who will not be as lenient as Jesus.

    On the subject of Muslims, however, they all likely receive a sentence to hell; simply because Allah is almost the complete opposite of our God.
     
  20. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    What an arrogant thing to say. Allah is your God. You worship the same God!
     
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