Are Kami Gods?

[Heyo]

This is yet another iteration of the question "what is a god?".

Wikipedia defines Kami as "the deities, divinities, spirits, phenomena or "holy powers", that are venerated in the Shinto religion". Which is, they are intentionally vague and avoid the word "gods" altogether (though they call them "deities" which is just a fancy word for gods).

I think it is a mistranslation/misunderstanding and Kami don't rise above the level of "spirits".

What's your take on that?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Out of curiosity, how could any answer from such a thread prove useful?

 

[Heyo]

Out of curiosity, how could any answer from such a thread prove useful?

It helps narrow down what a god is and what isn't.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It helps narrow down what a god is and what isn't.

The opinions of a largely anonymous group of mostly non-experts about an fairly obscure topic is going to meaningfully inform your understanding of "what a god is and what isn't." That's remarkable.

 

[crossfire]

Kami are tutelary deities. If you are a pantheist, you might call them gods, as they are part of nature, and suffer along with the rest of us. If your idea of god is something outside of nature, then no, they are not.

 

[syo]

This is yet another iteration of the question "what is a god?".

Wikipedia defines Kami as "the deities, divinities, spirits, phenomena or "holy powers", that are venerated in the Shinto religion". Which is, they are intentionally vague and avoid the word "gods" altogether (though they call them "deities" which is just a fancy word for gods).

I think it is a mistranslation/misunderstanding and Kami don't rise above the level of "spirits".

What's your take on that?

They are deities.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

This is yet another iteration of the question "what is a god?".

Wikipedia defines Kami as "the deities, divinities, spirits, phenomena or "holy powers", that are venerated in the Shinto religion". Which is, they are intentionally vague and avoid the word "gods" altogether (though they call them "deities" which is just a fancy word for gods).

I think it is a mistranslation/misunderstanding and Kami don't rise above the level of "spirits".

What's your take on that?

From you wording, you seem to be assuming that deities, divinities, spirits, phenomena and holy powers are a hierarchy of some sort, for example from highest (deities) to lowest (powers)...as an outsider of the Shinto way, I likely do not have a complete nor accurate understanding of "Kami," but I don't think that the meaning of Kami is hierarchical...

I see it as that the term doesn't fit well into English, and so the Dictionary's translators of the term provided several roughly approximate terms in an effort to show the dimensions of the term in Japanese.

Now then, my understanding of Kami is that they range from very small, local entities/conditions to very, very large ones (Mt. Fujiyama is considerable larger than a single small waterfall in a forest, for example...consequently, some may--in English or other Western languages--be considered 'just' a power, phenomenon, or spirit, or may be considered to be a 'god'...although I doubt that any Kami are the conceptual equivalent of the Judeo-Christian "God."

They might be more equivalent to the divine entities of the Norse, Greek and Hindu pantheons, though.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Erebus]

This is yet another iteration of the question "what is a god?".

Wikipedia defines Kami as "the deities, divinities, spirits, phenomena or "holy powers", that are venerated in the Shinto religion". Which is, they are intentionally vague and avoid the word "gods" altogether (though they call them "deities" which is just a fancy word for gods).

I think it is a mistranslation/misunderstanding and Kami don't rise above the level of "spirits".

What's your take on that?

From the Wikipedia page:

Kami are the central objects of worship for the Shinto belief.

I tend to view gods as anything deemed worthy of worship since I consider that definition to be the most inclusive without becoming completely meaningless (e.g. a god is that which is called a god). By that metric, Kami could certainly qualify as gods.

However, I'm fully aware that the definition I use has its flaws. For one thing, it hinges on the word "worship" which is itself a fairly nebulous concept. There are also instances where it fails entirely as something can be considered worthy of worship but not a god. Something can also be considered a god but unworthy of worship. This is why I have a lot of sympathy for ignostics

Since I'm not a Shinto practitioner and know virtually nothing about it, I would ultimately have to leave it to them to say whether or not Kami are gods.

 

[The Hammer]

Of course they are.

 

[Heyo]

The opinions of a largely anonymous group of mostly non-experts about an fairly obscure topic is going to meaningfully inform your understanding of "what a god is and what isn't." That's remarkable.

About half of RF members believe there are gods and some of them even believe to know what a god is. We even have members who are professional believers and even hobbyist believers may have access to theologist literature they can quote to support their non expert opinion.

But you are right, my expectations aren't very high that anyone here or elsewhere knows what a god is. In fact, that is my philosophy and I'm challenging it again.

 

[Eddi]

Do people worship them?

If so then yes, they are Gods

 

[Heyo]

Of course they are.

What makes you so sure?

There are entities in European folk lore like sylph, dryads and sirens who resemble Kami. Do you call them gods?

 

[crossfire]

The opinions of a largely anonymous group of mostly non-experts about an fairly obscure topic is going to meaningfully inform your understanding of "what a god is and what isn't." That's remarkable.

Tutelary spirits are an obscure topic on a religious forum? Really?

 

[crossfire]

Here's an imperfect analogy that might help with understanding an aspect of Kami:

Let's say you have an injured rib. Your body will change its usual means of operation in such a manner as to protect the injured rib from further injury and allow it to heal. Why should your forearm care about the state of your rib, and why would it alter its normal function to take on a protective role in regard to the injured rib? It does it because the rib is part of an interconnected system called your body. The protective mechanism arises due to the interconnectedness of your body. A kami might be likened to this protective behavior (including the pain involved,) and it too arises from the interconnectedness of the system which it inhabits.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is no escaping the lack of inherent meaning of the word "god".

You may call Kami gods if you want to. Or you may prefer not to, perhaps to avoid projection of Abrahamic expectations.

It is futile to want a more authoritative answer.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., my expectations aren't very high that anyone here or elsewhere knows what a god is. In fact, that is my philosophy and I'm challenging it again.

I hope that both your expectations and your philosophy come to rest on firmer grounds ...

 

[The Hammer]

Do you call them gods?

Yes. But there is a distinction between gods and Gods. If someone qualifies it as worthy of worship, then they have deified it, and it is a god. If it is worshipped for a period of time, becomes embedded in the local folklore and place/space, and given a name (ie Tyr), they become a God.

Edit: anything someone deems worthy of worship is a god.

Edit 2: noun
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Tutelary spirits are an obscure topic on a religious forum? Really?

Whether a topic is obscure or fruitful are two distinct questions.

 

[Heyo]

I hope that both your expectations and your philosophy come to rest on firmer grounds ...

I have tried and brighter people than I have tried but I didn't find their arguments for hard Agnosticism convincing as much as I'd like to have that certainty.
For now I only have the empirical basis of debates like this. And like with all empirical theories, new data can falsify the theory, though repeat experiments with the same outcome strengthen the theory.
And repeat experiments I do have, each and every one supporting my theory. So I do have pretty firm ground. But if you have a priory arguments for Agnosticism, I'm listening.

 

[crossfire]

Whether a topic is obscure or fruitful are two distinct questions.

Well, are kami gods?