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Are Humans Their Own Worst Enemy?
- Thread starter Deeje
- Start date
Science is a tool intended to expand our knowledge and understanding of the natural world. I would call that a good thing. However, that knowledge can be applied pretty much any way someone wants to apply it. That can be good or bad.
You did say that embracing science has lead some to mass murder. While not claiming science is bad, I think your statement is pretty inaccurate. I think they would have been mass murderers even if left with only sticks and stones. Historically, many mass murdering leaders had little access to scientific support while still achieving a lot of deaths. Of course, technology made it easier.
I have no idea what you mean here. I just responded to a post I saw while browsing through this thread. It happened to be yours.
I saw the post you responded too. I am not of that tribe. I think that response you are referring to is also inaccurate. I consider opposing, denying or ignoring evidence and logical conclusions based on belief has occurred, but ignoring wisdom based on experience, philosophies and values has also occurred. Results from either extreme have been poor.
We could probably learn a great deal from doing involuntary medical experiments on poor people. That would be an extreme example of embracing science I suppose. But I think even most atheists would have philosophical and moral objections to it. Certainly, I think most religious people would object.
They could be made out of hemp. I know a lot of people burn that eventually. But even if they didn't, they would biodegrade or could be turned into mulch.Do you really think that the banning of plastic shopping bags is a real solution? Do you know what the substitute bags are made of? Are they less polluting materials? Do you know that people now use these bags for their trash? What problem was solved? Only those who really care about the environment will reuse them and only a fraction of the plastic waste that is put into the recycle bin actually is recycled. There are warehouses full of plastic products waiting for somewhere to go. They used to ship them off the third world countries who have now stopped taking them.
Burning plastic gives of toxic gas so finding ways of disposing of the plastic that already exists would be a logistical nightmare environmentally.
We humans are really not as intelligent as we imagine ourselves to be. We seem to have all the rights...but no responsibilities....and we love money more than we love the only home we have in this universe .
I am not sure that using plastic to make bags or other items is evil in itself. Maybe they could make plastic Bibles out of the recycled bags.Yes, you and others have struck on the main problem.....whatever science discovers, someone always seems to find an evil use for it......with short sighted financial gains as their main motivation......so human greed is one of the main issues here, I think many would agree.
But along with the science, there also is governmental responsibilities. We have known for decades that plastics have been polluting our environment and all governments have done is inform people of the problem without actually doing anything about it. Perhaps there was the financial gain from those big corporations who produce these pollutants going bust and that income being threatened? Or perhaps these corporations fund political campaigns and governments are hesitant about upsetting them? There has to be reasons why this has been ignored on such a large scale for so long, when they knew exactly what the experts were predicting and now we are living in the reality.
Is this what paradise is supposed to look like?
But what would have happened decades ago if the governments had stepped up to the plate and unitedly tackled the problem in a collective fashion and made laws banning the production of these things in their current form. This is a global problem with two culprits at the end of the day.....the manufacturer who was allowed to keep producing this poison to our environment, and the rulers who allowed them to do it.
For example, if hemp had been used to produce the plastic instead of petroleum related chemicals, then no environmental damage would have been done. Instead of killing the marine creatures, it would have fed them. Instead of polluting the landfill, it would have fertilized it. Such an intelligent choice could have avoided the disaster that this form of pollution has become, and given farmers an ongoing income with a very easy and pest resistant crop to grow indefinitely.
Someone else mentioned commercial fishing nets as one of the main threats to marine life and we can easily see that this is correct. But "commercial fishing" is exactly what the problem is. These nets are not biodegradable which means that they never break down in the oceans...thousands of them are abandoned every year but these trap so much more than the fish they are meant to catch. It is heartbreaking seeing air breathing marine creatures caught and drowned in these death traps.
In the old days, only people who lived in coastal towns and villages ate fish and sea foods, and the waters around their areas had sustainable supplies without taking away food for other marine animals. Now that we have those who exploit the oceans for profit, their fishing is completely "commercial".....financial incentives are their only focus. There is no regard for sustainability when you see what is wasted and killed in those nets.
In all of this I can only echo the Bible's clear statement..."the love of money is the root of all evil".
A manufacturing facility. Even one that uses hemp as a resource will produce environmental waste as a biproduct. It is not like natural fibers are made by magic.
The Bible does not agree with you Tony...it says that humans efforts will never bring about the solution to any of our problems....which are all brought about by short sighted humans with their eyes on the money.....until you remove the sin that promotes the greed, nothing will change and humanity will be doomed. Only a power greater than themselves will solve these problems....by force....leaving them no choices. (Daniel 2:44) Humans have proven that they are hopeless at managing their environment, their relationships with others, and even their own personal dilemmas. Without the right guidance, we keep making the same stupid mistakes. History repeats ad infinitum.
Only by eliminating the divisive human elements will mankind then become united in their diversity. The only thing that divided them is self-interest.....don't we have the ultimate example of selflessness in the person of Jesus Christ? Why is it so difficult to imitate him?
Natural fibers are made by God, hence environmentally friendly like all "natural" things, when used as directed.
Even a quick Google search reveals....
"Hemp is a sustainable crop that can be used to produce a vast array of biodegradable materials. ... Hemp is a weed, so it grows prolifically with little water and no pesticides. It takes up relatively little space, produces more pulp per acre than trees, and is biodegradable."
"Hemp returns many of its nutrients into the ground, thus the soil becomes healthier, and erosion slows."
"Hemp is naturally one of the most ecologically friendly fabrics and also the oldest. ... Natural organic hemp fiber 'breathes' and is biodegradable. Hemp blended with other fibers easily incorporate the desirable qualities of both textiles."
People can do their own searches on the benefits of hemp products.....there is very little downsides to it.
We don't have to do away with the benefits of plastic...just make it out of hemp and then recycle it in the garden or the compost bin.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I was replying to your point about intelligence. Intelligence is not a factor in survival. We have been crassly foolish in a few preceding centuries (not keeping our population under control, raiding the riches of nature). But we are surviving.
But our survival or extinction does not mean anything to nature. It was doing without us all this time and it will keep doing what it does even if the humans become extinct, and there may not be anyone to conjure up Gods. That is where God comes in.
To think that we are in some way important to nature is human ego. It did not matter to nature in 4.77 billion years out of 4.78 billion years, it would not matter if it happens even now.
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rational experiences
Veteran Member
The basic human self appraisal.
Science owned by the group enforced science unnatural living conditions without natural human majority aware spiritual advice.
Multi thought. Multi reasoning for better life choices.
The group a choice as a small control group versus the greater human over conscious review.
Which is stated as humans ownership of natural innate spirituality. Survival naturally healthy.
Whenever the group entrenched in control by elitist gain makes a choice their lifestyle gets included in the choice. How it went wrong. Life.
Making their choices irrational. Life not wealth is first.
Our owned human self teaching always said greed will destroy us
Religious ideal spiritual first then became its own hypocrite when it tried to enforce one choice for everyone.
They too became greedy. By want of organisation control.
How one choice owns such destructive human realisation. How and why one choice for everyone was so important.
What we preached but what we never rationally idealised.
The human condition. To lie about choice. We always had multi choice.
If humans want to agree to life health as first importance then they have to make correct choices about any technology not supporting that event.
And greed is the first subject of that reality.
Science owned by the group enforced science unnatural living conditions without natural human majority aware spiritual advice.
Multi thought. Multi reasoning for better life choices.
The group a choice as a small control group versus the greater human over conscious review.
Which is stated as humans ownership of natural innate spirituality. Survival naturally healthy.
Whenever the group entrenched in control by elitist gain makes a choice their lifestyle gets included in the choice. How it went wrong. Life.
Making their choices irrational. Life not wealth is first.
Our owned human self teaching always said greed will destroy us
Religious ideal spiritual first then became its own hypocrite when it tried to enforce one choice for everyone.
They too became greedy. By want of organisation control.
How one choice owns such destructive human realisation. How and why one choice for everyone was so important.
What we preached but what we never rationally idealised.
The human condition. To lie about choice. We always had multi choice.
If humans want to agree to life health as first importance then they have to make correct choices about any technology not supporting that event.
And greed is the first subject of that reality.
Ricin is all natural too. Made by God. So is urushiol oil from poison ivy. Many things are natural and not good. Being natural does not mean free of consequences.
You have a fantasy mindset about things. If you make bags out of hemp in the quantities that plastic bags are produced, waste would result from manufacturing. Not all of that waste will good for the environment. It takes resources to manufacture things. At least here in the real world it does.
I am not saying I am against the idea of using natural materials that biodegrade or have a post consumer use. In fact, I said just about what you are saying regarding hemp. It is just that you are suggesting that because it is natural there are no consequences for manufacturing based on a natural material as a resource. The consequences of any mass production system would have to be considered even if using natural materials. Look at cattle production in Australia and all the dung they produce. You guys have to import dung beetles to help control the proliferation of that very natural material. Otherwise, we are right back where you have shown we are with plastics and something good has soured because of unexpected consequences.
What does "when used as directed" mean. If we used plastic as directed, many of the unintended consequences would be eliminated. Throwing plastic bags in a ditch or letting them blow all over the place is not using as directed. I am not sure your use of the phrase has any real meaning other than to give you some air of authority.
I agree with you on plastic pollution. It is a serious problem. Not only would we be better off finding some biodegradable or reusable material to replace plastics, but we also need to find solutions for the problem that exists now.Looking back through their history both secular and religious, it is very apparent that humans are poor examples of how to lead the world and each other in the right direction.
Looking at today’s world and seeing the advances in technology and science and the decline in religious practice, what conclusions can we come to? Is science the more intelligent way to go?Is the seeming demise of religion what the world needs to move forward?
For every advancement that science makes, the planet is paying for it in some way. We, as supposedly the most intelligent inhabitants of this planet seem to throw caution to the wind when implementing things that will save us time and money. All focus seems to be on the here and now, but little attention is paid to what consequences may come from such a short sighted view.
What are some of the upsides and opposing downsides that you can think of where humans could demonstrate more responsibility for the environment?
I’ll start off with the one thing that humans invented that is now choking the world.....plastic pollution.
Plastics became popular in the 1960’s and were originally a boon to every household and an accumulation of plastic containers and gadgets flooded the market with “must have” implements and storage containers with lids. But here we are 6 decades later and we are drowning in the stuff because we failed to see how long this product would take to break down like natural products do.
What would you offer as a solution? Should we get rid of plastic and substitute a more environmentally friendly product like hemp? If so what do we do with all the existing plastic that is clogging our landfill, oceans and rivers?
Should we make the manufacturers more accountable?
Thoughts....?
I disagree that every advancement of science results in the planet paying or being harmed. Many advancements of science help the planet and some have no direct or indirect impact at all. But agreed. Some have very negative impacts resulting from their application.
I think use of hemp and other natural materials to replace plastics in some areas would be very beneficial and conceptually possible. Anything to reduce the growing issue of plastic waste should be beneficial.
I am seeing the Bible says we must be born again.
If being born again can not achieve that required unity, the why be born again?
Regards Tony
I guess that depends on what you believe it means.....I think it has wider implications than most people imagine.
What does being “born again” mean in your belief system? How does it relate to advantages for the planet and it’s occupants?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
We are never born again. It is a one-time affair.
Sorry for the confusion, I was using the term generically, or metaphorically.....”used as directed” alludes to things that can harm when not “used as directed”.....think of medicines for example.....some are quite beneficial “when used as directed” by a practitioner but like all medicines, can be harmful when you exceed the dosage or use it for something it was not designed to treat.
Petroleum based products are from fossil fuels which I believe scientists should have left in the ground because I don't believe anything that creates toxins was ever meant to be burned. Look at the pollution they cause! Does that offset the benefit of being able to jump in our cars and go wherever we like? Or to have coal powered electricity and industry pumping out tons of Co2 into the atmosphere when we are losing the lungs of the world for timber and palm oil plantations?
This is NOT OK.
Humans tend to think in terms of the little that they personally contribute to the pollution problem....like that one plastic container that they might throw in the garbage, but they forget about the million other people who think the same way.....collectively we are killing the planet and robbing its inhabitants of a quality of life that would still be there if we cared more about those around us, including all the myriad lifeforms that are now facing extinction because of our greed for profit.
Habitats are being destroyed with no regard for the creatures that God designed to live in them. Humans are 'reaping what they sowed', but so are all the other creatures who are at the mercy of our greed.
What I mean is that there is no balance....whatever good science does, there is always something bad to cancel it out. Without ethics there would be so many crossing the line as I am sure that in some nations they are already doing behind the scenes.
For example, why would the Chinese be doing research on bat to human transfer of viruses in the Wuhan Virology Lab, even publishing papers on the subject, and then all of a sudden we have a bat to human virus taking over the world, killing millions, and mutating into more lethal strains!?
I believe that humans will account for their actions.....
Speak for yourself.....but aren't you a believer in reincarnation?
Well I was just joking.Do you really think that the banning of plastic shopping bags is a real solution? Do you know what the substitute bags are made of? Are they less polluting materials? Do you know that people now use these bags for their trash? What problem was solved? Only those who really care about the environment will reuse them and only a fraction of the plastic waste that is put into the recycle bin actually is recycled. There are warehouses full of plastic products waiting for somewhere to go. They used to ship them off the third world countries who have now stopped taking them.
Burning plastic gives of toxic gas so finding ways of disposing of the plastic that already exists would be a logistical nightmare environmentally.
We humans are really not as intelligent as we imagine ourselves to be. We seem to have all the rights...but no responsibilities....and we love money more than we love the only home we have in this universe .
Environmentalism is an important cause unfortunately it’s also an unpopular one apparently.
Would I like to see biodegradable reusable bags in shops? Absolutely. In order to achieve that I think we need to make it seem like a profitable ideal to companies. Capitalism my friend.
I never said anything about nature either. What will happen will happen, as regards how the planet responds, and if humans go extinct then that is what will happen and the rest of life will hardly miss us. Intelligence is not a factor in survival? So we can carry on being destructive - too large a population, too consuming of resources, too destructive of the environment and wildlife, etc. - when if we used our intelligence we would see that we need to become less so and more organised and do more planning, even if it does mean drastic changes to our lifestyles. The issue seems to be that many demand their freedoms to do what they want without the responsibilities attached to such - think the USA, for one, but many more too.
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Sorry, I didn't see your tongue in your cheek there....
Only unpopular with those who will lose money if they stop doing what they're doing. I can't believe that Australia is still selling coal to other nations, knowing what they know. Money speaks all languages apparently...and hang the planet.
Why has no one started to produce hemp plastic shopping bags? I'm sure people would love them! You could put them into the bin with your rubbish with nothing to worry your conscience about.
We could make it seem profitable if we boycotted everything that is wrapped or contained in non biodegradable materials. I see that Woolies is doing this now.....but Coles is not where I live. Aldi needs to work on this too. We need to make them accountable. If we stopped buying their products they would soon get the message....but it would take a groundswell. Most people are just too lazy.
Governments need to force the issue....but I can't understand why they don't.
Indeed...another word for greedy commercialism....grease their palm with silver.....or bitcoin perhaps....