Are humans hardwired to believe in something greater?

[Storm]

You dramatically overstate your case. There is a BELIEF that there's something greater than humanity. It doesn't make that belief actually so. This is why theists get criticized so heavily for these massive leaps of illogic.

You rely far too heavily on these strawmen to criticize even Kirk Cameron's logic.

I said there was a statement, you added the rest. Stop wasting my time.

 

[Storm]

Yeah. You may just have made an alcoholic out of me. Where are all of life's certainties now?

See my signature, dear heart.

But I'll happily share my liver.

You seem to be talking about the perception of Transcendence. I have somewhat taken to talk about "The Sacred" in recent months, which I find a better concept to use than that of the Divine. Maybe it is something like that, but I suspect not. You seem to believe in something pre-existing, not in a potential or clear direction to follow.

I suppose. But there are degrees of belief, yes

I am a mystic first, and always was, even in my maltheism. That which I experience as such is as far beyond doubt as it is comprehension.

I lean towards the idea that those are the the clumsy perception of something external to myself, it's true, but having touched it myself, I know better than to place any faith in attempts to grasp what can't even be fully remembered. And even so, the most revelatory insight I've encountered in the last decade was the foundation of non-theistic neopaganism. They hold that the Gods are Gods precisely because they are ancient and primal forces in the hidden depths of the human psyche. NTNPs must fail as surely as everyone else, but they showed me that the question of God's external reality is as irrelevant as it is unprovable.

 

[Cephus]

You rely far too heavily on these strawmen to criticize even Kirk Cameron's logic.

Kirk Cameron wouldn't know logic if it bit him.

I said there was a statement, you added the rest. Stop wasting my time.

By all means, stop responding if it's a waste of your time.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Maybe we are conditioned to believe there is something greater than us? We could be raised that way? Live in an environment that belittles humans in relation to supernatural powers?

Well, I never felt programed to believe in something greater. I never had that concept in my mind until I joined the Catholic Church three years ago. I'm not practicing now, but knowing that there is something underlining all life has always been an interesting thing to me. I guess you can say I believed there is something that kept us alive--but I never thought it greater than me. It's just life.

I hear a lot of people say "but we have got to have come from some place" and "we can't come from nothing." I don't hear that from Buddhists though. In some sects they believe in different deities as personifications of the historical Buddha--but not a Creator like western faiths.

I guess since I never had a belief in a Creator since birth, I'm sure there are some who experience likewise--making it not hardwired.

Without going into citing scientific research I will just say that I was watching a t-v show in which scientist that study the brain via the latest electronic devices have suggested that humans are hardwired to seek out or believe in something all powerful, something greater than mankind.
If God created Adam and Eve it might be that we could conclude that we are hardwired to believe in a Creator more powerful and all knowing that gave us life on this earth.
That premise could explain why all cultures tend to believe in something greater than man.
Just off hand I know of no culture, going back in history as far as we are able, that doesn't believe in something greater than man.
Thoughts on that?
No one can know everything thus we have the ability to create communications devices like computers that led to places like this one where almost anyone, anywhere, can communicate and exchange thoughts.
I'm most interested in what you have to say. Consider this topic open to anyone, athiest, statists, agnostics, even Catholics.
That was a bit of wit, not a bash. Nit wit if you like.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That would probably be in line with babies needing a parent. I guess as adults we still need "parents." Why supernatural, who knows.

I'm thinking it is so, in the sense that we need some authority in order to promote continuity of the species. We need the authority of someone so we can all accept the same rules as a society.

We hold these truth to be self evident out of necessity, not out of fact. Some folks may even believe they have the authority of God. Whatever truth your going to use to convince other folks to live according to the same rules.

Without this, limited possibility of survival. Whatever greater thing which gets promoted allows us to come together with common goals as a society.

Religious folks in the past survived not because of their Gods but because of the unity their belief brought about. They survived and handed that trait genetically/culturally to their offspring.

Those that didn't believe in something greater then themselves probably didn't survive well to pass such traits on.

 

[Storm]

Kirk Cameron wouldn't know logic if it bit him.

My point precisely

By all means, stop responding if it's a waste of your time.

Why don't you? It's plainly a waste of yours.

 

[Storm]

Maybe we are conditioned to believe there is something greater than us? We could be raised that way? Live in an environment that belittles humans in relation to supernatural powers?

Well, I never felt programed to believe in something greater. I never had that concept in my mind until I joined the Catholic Church three years ago. I'm not practicing now, but knowing that there is something underlining all life has always been an interesting thing to me. I guess you can say I believed there is something that kept us alive--but I never thought it greater than me. It's just life.

I hear a lot of people say "but we have got to have come from some place" and "we can't come from nothing." I don't hear that from Buddhists though. In some sects they believe in different deities as personifications of the historical Buddha--but not a Creator like western faiths.

I guess since I never had a belief in a Creator since birth, I'm sure there are some who experience likewise--making it not hardwired.

That's skipping ahead again, though, yes? A monotheistic creator is certainly a popular conception now, but it's also a comparatively new one.

If we ditch the claims of specific theologies, however, the idea that we only believe in 'something' because of conditioning just doesn't hold up. It's the simple logic of 'who started it?'

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Does there have to be someone or thing that started it? Does it give comfort to people that someone/thing started the universe rather than their faith focusing on living in the present without trying to figure what came before and what will come later?

I mean, if I were to believe in a Creator it wouldn't be because I needed an answer as to how I came to be. I don't even think I refer to life as a Creator because the Creator is life. Back to the point, though, do you believe some people aren't conditioned to believe in a Creator--they just believe?

That's skipping ahead again, though, yes? A monotheistic creator is certainly a popular conception now, but it's also a comparatively new one.

If we ditch the claims of specific theologies, however, the idea that we only believe in 'something' because of conditioning just doesn't hold up. It's the simple logic of 'who started it?'

 

[Storm]

Does there have to be someone or thing that started it?

Well, yes. If we only believe because we're conditioned, then who first delivered the conditioning? Why? For that matter, how did the conditioning take?

However....

Does it give comfort to people that someone/thing started the universe rather than their faith focusing on living in the present without trying to figure what came before and what will come later?

Doubtless it does, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

To draw a purely irreligious comparison, you and I can only communicate because we were both taught the English language. But English didn't spring out of nowhere fully formed, it developed gradually out of older languages that developed from others older still. If you go back far enough, you'll find an ancestral species with no language at all. You could draw the same parallel with germ theory or rap music.

This is a very different process than something simply being taught to children who know nothing else, yes?

I mean, if I were to believe in a Creator it wouldn't be because I needed an answer as to how I came to be. I don't even think I refer to life as a Creator because the Creator is life. Back to the point, though, do you believe some people aren't conditioned to believe in a Creator--they just believe?

Nobody 'just believes' anything, there's always a causal chain - regardless of whether it starts with conditioning, divine revelation, or psychotic delusion.

The rest of my answer depends on whether you want to stay with modern or switch to evolutionary origins in light of the rest of the post.

I can tell you that I was raised by a deist (now atheist-leaning agnostic) who conditioned me not to believe anything that I was merely told. Then when I was 11, I crashed into theophany like a brick wall and I've been obsessed with figuring out what the hell THAT was ever since. I don't think it's a Creator, nor can I rule out the idea completely. But I know damned well it's there.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

True. It's there. What, of course depends on the person.

I would 'think' like the English language, our morals evolved (I'm not really into evolution) gradually. We conditioned or started teaching our children what we feel is right and wrong since we learned it ourselves from our parents. Maybe our first ancestors mostly had to learn these things by scratch.

Who first delivered the conditioning? I never thought of that. I guess I'm more of a "what's going on now" type of person. Trying to wrap my head on who or what created us doesn't make sense when I'm mapping out my purpose in life.

I think--an edgumacated guess here--that how we are conditioned could be just from trial and error from nature and our influence of our environment and people. Conditioning could be indirect as well; learning from mistakes and benefits.

I believe we have already a set of morals (for lack of better words) in us that has been covered with conditioning and what we are taught to believe is right/wrong. When it conflicts with "our" common sense, we know that we believe something that no one could have taught us. Probably what you said, divine intervention. However, some people believe without having something outside make them "see the light."

It's kind of hard to answer some of your questions because I haven't looked much into evolution if any; and, I don't necessarily feel we need to believe in a Creator or know the origins of the universe. Something good to study as theology and philosophy; but to state my life on it, different story.

Ooh, and you're right, no one just believes. I believe we have inherit beliefs that we don't know until we become adults and realize what we are taught whether directly or indirectly doesn't line up with our own common sense.

Well, yes. If we only believe because we're conditioned, then who first delivered the conditioning? Why? For that matter, how did the conditioning take?

However....


Doubtless it does, but that's not what I'm talking about at all.

To draw a purely irreligious comparison, you and I can only communicate because we were both taught the English language. But English didn't spring out of nowhere fully formed, it developed gradually out of older languages that developed from others older still. If you go back far enough, you'll find an ancestral species with no language at all. You could draw the same parallel with germ theory or rap music.

This is a very different process than something simply being taught to children who know nothing else, yes?


Nobody 'just believes' anything, there's always a causal chain - regardless of whether it starts with conditioning, divine revelation, or psychotic delusion.

The rest of my answer depends on whether you want to stay with modern or switch to evolutionary origins in light of the rest of the post.

I can tell you that I was raised by a deist (now atheist-leaning agnostic) who conditioned me not to believe anything that I was merely told. Then when I was 11, I crashed into theophany like a brick wall and I've been obsessed with figuring out what the hell THAT was ever since. I don't think it's a Creator, nor can I rule out the idea completely. But I know damned well it's there.

 

[jeager106]

Pareidolia is why humans see U.F.O.s, Elvis in the clouds, the face of Jesus in
a slice of burnt toast. People describe abducting aliens having totally human characteristics.
I can't quite equate pareidolia with being hardwired to seek, or believe in something greater than man.
On a side note about the phenominon of pareidolia. I served 10 years of my 22.5 in police work as a detective and soon learned that eye witnessed were pretty much worthless.
5 people seeing the same robber would describe him as a fat, skinny, tall, white, mexican, with blond, brown, black, hair, who as 6 ft., tall, 5 ft. short, with a clean shaven beard.
I'd take a photo or fingerprint any day.
Innocents have gone to prison based on eye witness testamony.

 

[psychoslice]

I think we are in a way hardwired to believe in something greater, or should I say be something greater. This pull we feel is what brought us to where we are today, through the evolutionary journey, but because most of us have no idea where we should be, we cling to religion and many other ideologies, anything that will make us feel we have arrived.

 

[jeager106]

Carlita: I would 'think' like the English language, our morals evolved (I'm not really into evolution) gradually.

I don't know about that moral evolution statement.
If we are speaking of relative modern history, say the past 6K years, there has been the Hebrew Bible with 613 commandments or laws which include a lot of morality.
Many people think there are 10 commandments but 613 is the number of Jewish laws.
If you are speaking of Crow Magnon, man of pre-history, I have no idea if they had a moral code since writen language, thus documentation is somewhat lacking.

You write: Ooh, and you're right, no one just believes. I believe we have inherit beliefs that we don't know until we become adults and realize what we are taught whether directly or indirectly doesn't line up with our own common sense.

inherent beliefs? What exactly? You mean beliefs were learned as children.
If so not inherent.
in·her·ent
/inˈhirənt/
adjective:

1. existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.
   synonyms: intrinsic, innate, immanent, built-in, indwelling, inborn;

You cite "common sense". I posit there is nothing common about sense.
I'm not trying to demean anything you say, just trying to understand what you mean.

 

[Shad]

Without going into citing scientific research I will just say that I was watching a t-v show in which scientist that study the brain via the latest electronic devices have suggested that humans are hardwired to seek out or believe in something all powerful, something greater than mankind.
If God created Adam and Eve it might be that we could conclude that we are hardwired to believe in a Creator more powerful and all knowing that gave us life on this earth.
That premise could explain why all cultures tend to believe in something greater than man.
Just off hand I know of no culture, going back in history as far as we are able, that doesn't believe in something greater than man.
Thoughts on that?
No one can know everything thus we have the ability to create communications devices like computers that led to places like this one where almost anyone, anywhere, can communicate and exchange thoughts.
I'm most interested in what you have to say. Consider this topic open to anyone, athiest, statists, agnostics, even Catholics.
That was a bit of wit, not a bash. Nit wit if you like.

Just reiterating points others have made.

Humans see patterns and form reactions according to patterns we see. However most patterns we see are fictional. For example a noise coming from the brush could result in a fight or flight response. The noise will be identified as a positive or negative. It could be prey or a predator. Only after evaluation does we create alternatives such as wind creating the noise. However the basic response often becomes a instinctual response when after evaluation. In the case of belief systems we see pattern as well, mostly fictional. Say a person needs rain for their crops. They may have some ritual like a rain dance or sacrifice which is believed to bring the rain or promote an external entity such as a deity to cause the rain. This person may just do some basic actions and conclude these actions bring the rain. Just like people knocking on wood to ward off bad luck. We just built up belief systems based on coincidence rather than confirmation. We create excuses for failed rituals blaming the person or deity for the lack of rain rather than actually figuring out why there is no rain. These false conclusions become taught, develop in religious rituals and become ingrained responses.

There are tribes in the Amazon with no creator or deity concept. They have lived for thousands of years in this state. Only the introduction of a creator concept by an individual which was taught this concept was the idea introduced in these people. Thus reaffirming the coincidence driven rituals which form the basis of many religions these days. If no one sees the coincidence driven conclusion no one develops the idea behind the conclusion. If you look at history you will find neighboring cultures have similar values due to communication and trade. Cultures which are isolated like those in the Amazon are restricted by the environment. None of it's members thought of a God concept as it is not inherent. No one imported these ideas until the environment was passable by those holding God concepts.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

we cling to religion and many other ideologies, anything that will make us feel we have arrived.

Yes, there does seem to be a strong human need to have a cause, a bigger purpose. I'm not sure how that's developed in an evolutionary sense.

 

[Desert Snake]

Without going into citing scientific research I will just say that I was watching a t-v show in which scientist that study the brain via the latest electronic devices have suggested that humans are hardwired to seek out or believe in something all powerful, something greater than mankind.
If God created Adam and Eve it might be that we could conclude that we are hardwired to believe in a Creator more powerful and all knowing that gave us life on this earth.
That premise could explain why all cultures tend to believe in something greater than man.
Just off hand I know of no culture, going back in history as far as we are able, that doesn't believe in something greater than man.
Thoughts on that?
No one can know everything thus we have the ability to create communications devices like computers that led to places like this one where almost anyone, anywhere, can communicate and exchange thoughts.
I'm most interested in what you have to say. Consider this topic open to anyone, athiest, statists, agnostics, even Catholics.
That was a bit of wit, not a bash. Nit wit if you like.

I'm not, so, no.

 

[Storm]

Humans see patterns and form reactions according to patterns we see. However most patterns we see are fictional.

You're not the first to raise this point, but I don't see how it's relevant.

The question is if we're hardwired (evolved) to seek some sort of God. Not whether the fact that we are proves that God-as-external-entity is real. That's a very different question, and a fool's game.

There are tribes in the Amazon with no creator or deity concept.

And we've established that monotheism is a much later development, have we not? To my knowledge, there are no tribes that lack any belief in the 'something greater.'

 

[jeager106]

I'm not, so, no.

I'm not, so no, what?
One tribe in the Amazon has little scientific value in the face of the brain scan research looking for the "god gene".
One wonders two things from your post.
How do humans survive in such a hostile invironment for so long?
Why does the word Amazon in your post serve as a link to Amazon.com?
The world is a mysterious place ain't it?

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm not, so no, what?
One tribe in the Amazon has little scientific value in the face of the brain scan research looking for the "god gene".
One wonders two things from your post.
How do humans survive in such a hostile invironment for so long?
Why does the word Amazon in your post serve as a link to Amazon.com?
The world is a mysterious place ain't it?

I never mentioned the amazon. Look, perhaps there is a 'hardwire' for deifics, but that is hardly a 'god gene'. 'god gene' is vague, it supposes non-culturally influenced belief where we have mainly cultural belief paradigms. I'm saying, 'hard wired', is a stretch.

 

[jeager106]

Storm says:The question is if we're hardwired (evolved) to seek some sort of God. Not whether the fact that we are proves that God-as-external-entity is real. That's a very different question, and a fool's game.

and....

And we've established that monotheism is a much later development, have we not? To my knowledge, there are no tribes that lack any belief in the 'something greater.'

My friend Storm took it apart and addressed the comments quite well.

It's well known, or should be to any child that attended grade school, that the native Americans worship many, many "gods" called spirits, then many tribes had a great spirit. If a N.A. felled a tree some some reason thanks was given to the tree, and sorrow for taking it's life expressed. Same for taking game.
Even the Blackfeet Indians, a most violent tribe, killing any Indian w/o black foot wear had many spirit gods. (they wore black died moccs thus "blackfeet")
To this day if I harvest a game animal I get on my knees, apologize for taking it's life, give thanks that the animal will sustain me & promise it will be used properly.
Who is this Christian praying too in such a case? Why the Great Spirit of course.
That does not diminish my faith in the "proper" God, but reinforces that ALL things have a spirit.
I see no "sin" in experssing sorrow for taking the deer or rabbit, or fish, or giving thanks to nature for providing such to satisfy my Neanderthal drives.
Spirit in this case indicates "life force" not necessarily a hi level of intellect.
If deer had guns, humans would be extinct. Unless deer established bag limits.
But I digress. I'm sorry.
My great, great, grandmother was a Blackfoot. Near as I know she didn't scalp anyone.