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Are Humans Animals

Our souls are spread out across seven kingdoms.
The three lower kingdoms of animal, vegetable and mineral.
Three heavenly kingdoms and the fourth kingdom which is a transient kingdom, the kingdom of man.
The animal.kingdom is just a small part of who we are.

What is the basis for this assertion? How do you define "kingdom" in your usage here? Why do you say minerals are a kingdom of life?

I'll point out that evolutionary biologists now accept existence of 6 different kingdoms "Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Protista, Archaea/Archaeabacteria, and Bacteria/Eubacteria." So you will have to modify your number of kingdoms to nine altogether, if you want to keep your heavenly kingdoms, and ten if you want to put humans into a different kingdom. Personally I'd make it eleven, because my dog really doesn't fit in the others either, and maybe 12, because my wife says I occupy a whole separate kingdom.

The three kingdoms of multi-cellular organisms identified by biologists have different essential metabolic bases, thereby causing them to play very different roles within the ecosphere.

There are two kingdoms of bacteria, one from the ancient earth which were methane breathers and now only exist in the guts of other organisms, under the earth, or next to volcano vents on the floor of the sea. And the subsequent ones, which evolved to live in a changing atmosphere and biological context. You could say that bacteria are the laboratory of life, as their high rate of reproduction allows mutations with their new possibilities to appear relatively quickly. To give you an idea of how fast they reproduce, if all the offspring a bacteria were allowed to survive and reproduce, they'd within days fill up the entire planet. This is why they keep coming up with ways to resist our antibiotics so quickly, for example.

Bacteria have created at least 56 forms of metabolism, in which energy is captured and used to do different things, of which at least three slipped into other cells to form Animals, Plants and Fungi, in an evolutionary process that biologists have called Symbiogenesis. (The generation of new forms of life through symbiosis.) It is thought that such symbiogenesis is responsible for most if not all the major phyla as well as the six kingdoms.

Bacteria also invented many other things that have been used by multi-cellar life, such as the calcium structures which allowed the creation of bones and teeth, as well as coral in the sea. And so forth.

Plants have organelles called chloroplasts in their cells that once were separate bacteria that convert sunlight, carbon dioxide and water into sugars which provide the building blocks and energy storage for plants, animals, and fungi, at least.

Animals have bacterial cells that became organelles in their cells that metabolize energy from the carbon compounds produced by plants called mitochondria. Fungi break down and metabolize dead organic matter, and they can break down and access minerals. Bacteria created the first nuclear reactors by concentrating radioactive materials to reach critical mass and produce heat. Humans have more bacterial cells in their bodies than human cells, making up approximately 6 pounds of our weight, so you say there is some question whether we are more bacteria than Eukaryota (multicellar life) and in any case without their symbiotic relationships with our cells and organs, you'd soon die without them. Something that is increasingly becoming a problem with the overuse of antibiotics.

All life on earth in fact would quickly die, and the earth's oceans in fact would not exist were it not for bacteria. Early bacteria created an early atmosphere of methane and eventually our current oxygen rich atmosphere on the planet as waste from their metabolism of the initial carbon dioxide atmosphere of the early early planet. They are also the creators of the oxidized forms of minerals and metals that currently characterize the surface of the planet. The oceans would have gradually melted away without the volatile oxygen-rich atmosphere to capture escaping hydrogen molecules and return them in the form of water. This probably is why Mars lost its seas and Venus doesn't have any because they never had sufficient life. Photosynthesizing Bacteria furthermore through their metabolism of carbon dioxide contribute to making a planet hospitable to life. Bacteria were first inhabitants of earth, they created all forms of life on it, and in the end, as the sun expands to eventually consume the planet, bacteria will be the last inhabitants on the planet. Probably already there are bacteria spores riding on our space probes towards other stars, which from their perspective might be the ultimate purpose of a complex form of life such as humans. Some think that is how life might have come to this planet.

(Lynn Margolis, who rediscovered the concept of biosymbiosis in evolution and was a strong critic of the neo-evolutionism of people such as Richard Dawkins that many religious people are also so critical of, has a number of readable and interesting books that discuss this whole evolutionary process from this perspective. I'd say the sense of evolution she has would concur with that of the Christian theologians who follow the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead. And now that I think about it, she could very well be a Whiteheadean. I'll add that Darwin himself never contested the existence of God, and even in the last paragraph of his Origin of Species he speaks of God, in a way that also would concur with Whitehead.)
 
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Trial and error won't work without intelligence being involved, imagine that I have all the components
to assemble a tv set but I have no diagram and know nothing about electronics then I try using the trial
and error method and if the TV doesn't work then I try another connections and of course some components
will be damaged due to the bad connections and hence a new components will be needed and I should have
a constant power supply ...etc, how about the human's body systems and the complexity of our brains?

It is more complicated than trial and error, although trial and error are the basis of learning. New possibilities appear through error in reproduction, called mutation, and life puts them to use to solve problems or take advantage of new possibilities. It is like things happen seemingly accidentally that make things available to us, and then we use them for solving a problem or allowing us to do something new. Branches blow down from trees which you can use to prop a roof; water washes stones out of an embankment with which you build a house or throw at an animal.

A change happens in a bird's beak that allows it to better utilize available food or a different food. It is going to then produce offspring which survive in larger numbers to gradually displace the offspring of its siblings, which did not get the change. Or else it will allow the bird to start exploiting an entirely different food source to create a new population and eventually new species alongside the old.

Organisms, even one-cell ones like amoeba, always have purposes and intentions even if they are simple, which lead them to utilize things when they come available to serve these purpose and intentions.

Because these mutations occur at a fairly regular rate allowing advantage to be taken of them is the basis of growth of diversity in nature, Darwin called it "natural selection." He got the word from contrasting it to the the selection that humans humans do when they select for different traits in plants and animals to serve human purposes--creating for example, all the varieties of dog from the wolf. The difference being that in the former it is circumstances in nature that lead to selection of particular traits by organisms when they put them to use, whereas in domestication it is humans which select plants or animals with particular traits.

If for some reason populations with the new traits are separated in some way from populations with the old for long enough time, so many mutations will eventually occur that the old and new forms can no longer interbreed and you then have a new species.

This doesn't give evidence that something we call God does or does not exist, but it gives a different role for God.

There is the Question of what is the origin of the unlimited possibilities in the first moment of the universe that allowed so many things and forms of existence to subsequently come into existence.

The mathematician, physicist, philosopher and theologian, Alfred Whitehead said all current conceptions of God--including science, which he shows is actually an offshoot of prophetic religion--are unable to explain the great complexity of the universe. He calls this this posing of possibilities at the inception of the universe God. It is through the consequent self creation of the universe that God finds form as a subject.

Whitehead's vast work is some of the most difficult stuff I've read, both in content and in presentation (when he lectured at Harvard the first week 130 people showed up, the next week 7), but it also is among the most rewarding material that I've read that truly seems to makes sense of the universe on its own terms.

His work argues that attributes we attribute to the divine, such as morality, appear in everything from the smallest molecule to our whole planet, though obviously different in quality with growing complexity of life, and ultimately the entire universe. Furthermore, everything from the smallest to the largest particle to the largest collection of galaxies is seen in relationship with everything else in the universe, no matter how imperceptible. For one thing, without the universe, from its first moment, you would have nothing else. But everything at one moment depends upon all the moments experienced by everything that preceded it.

So far, it has been a growing group of Christian theologians led, among others, by Professor John Cobb, who are the main ones who have been exploring his work to rediscover the role of God in a world of science. Already in China Whitehead had so much influence that 13 institutes involved in the study and application of Whitehead have sprouted up across the country. In the sciences, a growing number of ecologists, led by Stan Rowe, have discovered Whitehead leading to a transformation, some say salvation, of ecology. Stan Rowe says that for humans the entire planet is "God incarnate," because all life and all things on the planet presuppose humans, and the planet, which he calls ecosphere, creates and sustains all of us. Everything on it is essential to our existence, it creates us, it sustains us. And thus, everything on the planet is sacred.

One final thing which I should have been put at the start of this narrative, as I understand it, is that Whitehead the physicist, observed that the theories of relativity and quantum mechanics have changed everything for both religion and science, but most theologians and scientists go on in their day-to-day work as if these discoveries never happened. Whitehead's work as scientist, philosopher, mathematician and finally theologian, set out to make a science and theology that use the theories of relativity and quantum mechanics as their starting point, and there merge back together together in the union that marked their inception.

If any of this is all confusing, that is my own fault for failing to yet understand sufficiently Whitehead's work to be able to express in simple terms a very complex subject. Please question me if it doesn't make sense, if you disagree, or want to otherwise engage. I will appreciate it. My Facebook is also Laughing_Coyote.
 
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allfoak

Alchemist
What is the basis for this assertion? How do you define "kingdom" in your usage here? Why do you say minerals are a kingdom of life?

I'll point out that evolutionary biologists now accept existence of 6 different kingdoms "Animalia, Plantae, Fungi, Protista, Archaea/Archaeabacteria, and Bacteria/Eubacteria." So you will have to modify your number of kingdoms to nine altogether, if you want to keep your heavenly kingdoms, and ten if you want to put humans into a different kingdom. Personally I'd make it eleven, because my dog really doesn't fit in the others either, and maybe 12, because my wife says I occupy a whole separate kingdom.

The three kingdoms of multi-cellular organisms identified by biologists have different essential metabolic bases, thereby causing them to play very different roles within the ecosphere. There are two kingdoms of bacteria, one from the ancient earth which were methane breathers and now only exist in the guts of other organisms, under the earth, or next to volcano vents on the floor of the sea. And the subsequent ones, which evolved to live in a changing atmosphere and biological context. You could say that bacteria are the laboratory of life, having created at least 56 forms of metabolism, of which at least three, at least, slipped into other cells to form Animals, Plants and Fungi, in an evolutionary process called that biologists have called Symbiogenesis. (The generation of new forms of life through symbiosis.) They also invented many other things that have been used by multi-cellar life, such calcium structures which allowed the creation of bones and teeth. And so forth. Plants have organelles in their cells that once were separate bacteria that convert sunlight, carbon dioxide and water into sugars which provide the building blocks and energy storage for plants, animals and fungi, at least. Animals have bacterial cells that became organelles in their cells that metabolize energy from the carbon compounds produced by plants called mitochondria. Fungi breakdown metabolize dead organic matter and they can break down and access minerals. Bacteria created the first nuclear reactors by concentrating radioactive materials to reach critical mass and produce heat. Humans have more bacterial cells in them than human cells, making up approximately 6 pounds of their weight, so you say there is some question whether we are more bacteria than Eukaryota (multicellar life) and in any case without their symbiotic relationships with our cells and organs, you'd soon die without them.
Perhaps it is time to reexamine an old belief.
Like many other beliefs i have had over the years, they all get examined eventually and discarded if they no longer serve me.
As i have said many times, we do not always believe things because they are true but rather we more often than not, make things true because we believe them.
 

stevevw

Member
According to what I hear from science Humans are Great Apes along with Gorillas, Orangutans and Chimpanzees. They are cousins through evolution.

Humans are apes – ‘Great Apes’ - Australian Museum
AS far as the way humans kill and violate each other, we could not be further away from animals. As far as belief in divine concepts and a sense of self we are also different. As far as guilt in wrong doing we are different as well.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Organisms, even one-cell ones like amoeba, always have purposes and intentions even if they are simple, which lead them to utilize things when they come available to serve these purpose and intentions.
They have functions, within larger processes, but intention, it seems to me, implies degrees of freedom and a sapience I don't think they have.
The mathematician, physicist, philosopher and theologian, Alfred Whitehead said all current conceptions of God--including science, which he shows is actually an offshoot of prophetic religion--are unable to explain the great complexity of the universe. He calls this this posing of possibilities at the inception of the universe God. It is through the consequent self creation of the universe that God finds form as a subject.
This is not the ordinary concept of God as a personage, though. This is a whole different metaphysical concept.
In the sciences, a growing number of ecologists, led by Stan Rowe, have discovered Whitehead leading to a transformation, some say salvation, of ecology. Stan Rowe says that for humans the entire planet is "God incarnate," because all life and all things on the planet presuppose humans, and the planet, which he calls ecosphere, creates and sustains all of us. Everything on it is essential to our existence, it creates us, it sustains us. And thus, everything on the planet is sacred.
Again, this is an ontological level that ordinary theology and biology just don't deal with.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Trial and error won't work without intelligence being involved, imagine that I have all the components
to assemble a tv set but I have no diagram and know nothing about electronics then I try using the trial
and error method and if the TV doesn't work then I try another connections and of course some components
will be damaged due to the bad connections and hence a new components will be needed and I should have
a constant power supply ...etc, how about the human's body systems and the complexity of our brains?
Trial and error may require some awareness but it also means we aren't designed blueprint style.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Trial and error may require some awareness but it also means we aren't designed blueprint style.

Do you think it's a matter of luck that no one may have the same fingerprints?
If the fingerprints can't be the same by random process then how come that
we have been evolved by random mutations?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you think it's a matter of luck that no one may have the same fingerprints?
If the fingerprints can't be the same by random process then how come that
we have been evolved by random mutations?
You're asking a question you should know the answer to, FG, and what's this about evolution by random mutations? Haven't you been reading the posts? I even posted some YouTube links about this.

When you make an erroneous statement and it's corrected, why do you come back with the same errors?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
You're asking a question you should know the answer to, FG, and what's this about evolution by random mutations? Haven't you been reading the posts? I even posted some YouTube links about this.

When you make an erroneous statement and it's corrected, why do you come back with the same errors?

Mutations first and natural selection is second, so randomness should produce
a successful organism before being naturally selected, I'm aware of what I'm saying dude.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Well, the number of times that people have said to me, "You ANIMAL!", I certainly have to believe we are (or at least I am).

;):p
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
we didn't descend from bananas, despite having so many 'similarities' - and we can't draw that assumption from apes either
We didn't decend from apes either. We share a common ancestor. All animals including plants share a common ancestor at some point in evolution. Mammals show closer ancestors, apes even closer.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
We didn't decend from apes either. We share a common ancestor. All animals including plants share a common ancestor at some point in evolution. Mammals show closer ancestors, apes even closer.
So many people hate Richard Dawkins (and on his social views, I'm not a fan either), but really, his "The Ancestor's Tale" is a must-read.
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
animalis - Wiktionary

If we go by what the word "animal" means literally, then yes we are animals.

Some people have trouble distancing themselves from that fact: Instead they load it with ideology; For example when saying someone behaves "animal-like" in front of his/her human peers. BUT that is not the actual meaning of the word. That's a loaded insult. Nothing more.

So yes, humans are animals. Arguing against that is arguing against the English language. This is a literary issue, not a philosophical or even biological one.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
We may be lower than animals. I had another dream about dinosaurs. In this dream, I was shoveling garbage in a deep, filthy pit. As I shoveled, I looked around and could see dinosaur bones underground throughout the world. A voice said, "Humans have defiled my sacred grave." My interpretation is God is not pleased with humans polluting and disturbing earth. Apparently, God wanted nature to remain unmolested. That is, of course, contrary to Christian ideology about God creating the world for humans, and creating other species for humans' pleasure.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
We may be lower than animals. I had another dream about dinosaurs. In this dream, I was shoveling garbage in a deep, filthy pit. As I shoveled, I looked around and could see dinosaur bones underground throughout the world. A voice said, "Humans have defiled my sacred grave." My interpretation is God is not pleased with humans polluting and disturbing earth. Apparently, God wanted nature to remain unmolested. That is, of course, contrary to Christian ideology about God creating the world for humans, and creating other species for humans' pleasure.

I'd say it's pretty clear we are given dominion over the animals, and natural resources for our use
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
I'd say it's pretty clear we are given dominion over the animals, and natural resources for our use
It is what we have taken because of our advanced abilities compared to other species. We may have increased our life span and quality of life. Well, it depends. But based on the human record of destruction: conflicts and wars, high crime rates, exploding prison populations, poisoned rivers and drinking water, polluted oceans, eliminated species, spoiled land, and polluted air, we don't have much to brag about.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The difference between humans and animals is found at Gen 1:26
When did the Bible become a biology text? It's authors didn't know the first thing about biology.
I'd say it's pretty clear we are given dominion over the animals, and natural resources for our use
How is this clear? I'm able to shoot a deer or dig up a lump of coal and this is evidence of a deliberate gift of dominion?
Have bacteria been given dominion over the cells and organs of our bodies?
 
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