• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are Doctors Being Forced to Put COVID-19 on Death Certificates Without Evidence?

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
Now, just to be clear, before everyone gets enraged at me again for starting another controversial COVID-19 thread, I do not know if the person in the video is telling the truth or not. He may be lying, or he may not be. I tend to think he is not lying, but I can't be sure. If what he is saying is true, how much is it actually inflating the death numbers? Again, I don't know. I'm not going to be arguing with people over this, because I don't know the answers. The only thing that I will say that I hope we all agree on is: This claim should definitely be investigated, because if what he is saying is true, it is very concerning.

 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
It doesn't affect what we need to do. We have to improve sanitation methods, learn to be spaced a little further apart. The initial infection size is going to decrease to a smaller number, and the medical people will get an idea of how to help people with the disease and get out of panic mode. Then we can minimize the deaths and get back to the parks and B&N and church and movies and the whole bit.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
It doesn't affect what we need to do. We have to improve sanitation methods, learn to be spaced a little further apart. The initial infection size is going to decrease to a smaller number, and the medical people will get an idea of how to help people with the disease and get out of panic mode. Then we can minimize the deaths and get back to the parks and B&N and church and movies and the whole bit.

Maybe it doesn't affect us. But if this is true, don't you think it's problematic? If death certificates are supposed to be based on absolute certainty and confirmed causes of death, and doctors are being "coached" to put COVID-19 on certificates if it seems "likely" (but not certain) that the patient died of COVID-19, I think there's a major problem. Why should doctors be changing their methodology of writing death certificates now? Again, I don't even know if this is happening or not. But if it is, I think it's a serious inconsistency that could lead to incorrect numbers.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Maybe it doesn't affect us. But if this is true, don't you think it's problematic? If death certificates are supposed to be based on absolute certainty and confirmed causes of death, and doctors are being "coached" to put COVID-19 on certificates if it seems "likely" (but not certain) that the patient died of COVID-19, I think there's a major problem. Why should doctors be changing their methodology of writing death certificates now? Again, I don't even know if this is happening or not. But if it is, I think it's a serious inconsistency that could lead to incorrect numbers.

I think the numbers are incorrect regardless. We have a lot of cases, but deaths are more than likely a combination of factors not specific to COVID. COVID isn't an alien various as in we're growing extra heads and fingers and such. There are many illnesses that we only know how to treat but don't know how to cure.

The numbers would probably even out later. What puzzles me is once it evens out and doors are open, does that mean the virus just disappears?

Seems like another factor with this virus cause they just don't disappear just because we think we stopped the spread. Aka. We're not god.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe it doesn't affect us. But if this is true, don't you think it's problematic? If death certificates are supposed to be based on absolute certainty and confirmed causes of death, and doctors are being "coached" to put COVID-19 on certificates if it seems "likely" (but not certain) that the patient died of COVID-19, I think there's a major problem. Why should doctors be changing their methodology of writing death certificates now? Again, I don't even know if this is happening or not. But if it is, I think it's a serious inconsistency that could lead to incorrect numbers.
Senator Dr. Scott Jenson is a member of the Republican party, so he benefits politically too much from the situation for me to be sure....but as a doctor he should know this. I don't dismiss his testimony, but why is he, a Republican senator, the only doctor to be complaining, and why is he hawking it to the news instead of posting a question about it on Stack Exchange?

I believe that epidemiologists take these measures much more seriously than you or I, and they will be up in arms over anything which throws dirt upon their profession. Would they really rejoice about over-reported deaths? I can't imagine an epidemiologist not caring about something like that.

I did a search and found this on the Skeptics section of stack exchange:
Are deaths of patients with, but not because of, COVID-19 recorded as COVID-19 deaths in the USA?

They're discussing Brit Hume's similar accusation about dead certificates. I would have expected a Doctor and a Senator to make their complaint known in professional circles, but I'm not surprised at a party member in need of votes breaking it instead to a news station to create confusion, anger and division that they can profit from. Notice that you and I are merely confused by his news broadcast, and how could he not know this would be the result? As a doctor he knows that if he has a complaint there is a way to make it professionally instead of doing it this way.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Now, just to be clear, before everyone gets enraged at me again for starting another controversial COVID-19 thread, I do not know if the person in the video is telling the truth or not. He may be lying, or he may not be. I tend to think he is not lying, but I can't be sure. If what he is saying is true, how much is it actually inflating the death numbers? Again, I don't know. I'm not going to be arguing with people over this, because I don't know the answers. The only thing that I will say that I hope we all agree on is: This claim should definitely be investigated, because if what he is saying is true, it is very concerning.


This clown in my representative. He is being a bit duplicitous. That video is from 4 April, early days of Covid outbreak when test kits were not available in rural areas because they were needed in the hotspots like New York and New Jersey. Dr. Jensen's district in Carver County, Minnesota is mostly rural, though it is a suburb of the Twin Cities. It has a population density of 275 per square mile.

He refers to a seven page document from the Minnesota Health Department. Actually, that department did not issue such a document, but linked to the CDC document which is indeed seven pages long. Here is the document to read for yourself if you really want to know what the guidance was at the time:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

It looks like there is a gross misunderstanding of this document. Here is how I think this is being misread.

First, death certificates have two parts for reporting deaths. Part 1 is for reporting the immediate cause of death. Part 2 is for reporting underlying causes of death (UCOD). In some cases Covid is the underlying cause of death. In others it is the immediate cause of death. Errors are sometimes made about what line Covid should be reported on. The CDC is trying to straighten this out. From the document:

Common problems
Common problems in cause-of-death certification include:
1. reporting intermediate causes as the UCOD (i.e., on the lowest line used in Part I),
2. lack of specificity, and
3. illogical sequences.
Intermediate causes are those conditions that typically have multiple possible underlying etiologies and thus, a UCOD must be specified on a line below in Part I. For example, pneumonia is an intermediate cause of death since it can be caused by a variety of infectious agents or by inhaling a liquid or chemical.
Pneumonia is important to report in a cause-of-death statement but, generally, it is not the UCOD. The cause of pneumonia, such as COVID–19, needs to be stated on the lowest line used in Part I.

Additionally, the reported UCOD should be specific enough to be useful for public health and research purposes. For example, a “viral infection” can be a UCOD, but it is not specific. A more specific UCOD in this instance could be “COVID–19.” All causal sequences reported in Part I should be logical in terms of time and pathology. For example, reporting “COVID–19” due to “chronic obstructive pulmonary disease” in Part I would be an illogical sequence as COPD cannot cause an infection, although it may increase susceptibility to or exacerbate an infection. In this instance, COVID–19 would be reported in Part I as the UCOD and the COPD in Part II. While there can be reasonable differences in medical opinion concerning a sequence that led to a particular death, the causes should always be provided in a logical sequence from the immediate cause on line a. back to the UCOD on the lowest line used in Part I."

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible. "
Also, please notice that the last page of the CDC letter gives an example of an 86 year old woman who died and later it was determined that a member of her household had COVID. This is the same story that Jensen is referring too, but he doesn't tell you the entire story: This could not be his patient because his practice is in Carver County, Minnesota which has had 27 cases and NO DEATHS to date.

ArcGIS Dashboards

Scenario III: An 86-year-old female with an unconfirmed case of COVID–19 An 86-year-old female passed away at home. Her husband reported that she was nonambulatory after suffering an ischemic stroke 3 years ago. He stated that 5 days prior, she developed a high fever and severe cough after being exposed to an ill family member who subsequently was diagnosed with COVID–19. Despite his urging, she refused to go to the hospital, even when her breathing became more labored and temperature escalated. She was unresponsive that morning and her husband phoned emergency medical services (EMS). Upon EMS arrival, the patient was pulseless and apneic. Her husband stated that he and his wife had advanced directives and that she was not to be resuscitated. After consulting with medical command, she was pronounced dead and the coroner was notified. Comment: Although no testing was done, the coroner determined that the likely UCOD was COVID–19 given the patient’s symptoms and exposure to an infected individual. Therefore, COVID–19 was reported on the lowest line used in Part I. Her ischemic stroke was considered a factor that contributed to her death but was not a part of the direct causal sequence in Part I, so it was reported in Part II.​

Now, WHERE IS THE CONSPIRACY?
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
Now, just to be clear, before everyone gets enraged at me again for starting another controversial COVID-19 thread, I do not know if the person in the video is telling the truth or not. He may be lying, or he may not be. I tend to think he is not lying, but I can't be sure. If what he is saying is true, how much is it actually inflating the death numbers? Again, I don't know. I'm not going to be arguing with people over this, because I don't know the answers. The only thing that I will say that I hope we all agree on is: This claim should definitely be investigated, because if what he is saying is true, it is very concerning.

No it isn't. This is a news channel (you don't say which one) trying as hard as it can to make a scandal out of nothing.

And you buy it because it suits your agenda of denial about this disease.

It's what you get when you have a government that hasn't got enough tests to go round and they want to avoid underestimating the death count. In the UK we are finding a massive spike in apparent non-Covid 19 deaths in the community, i.e. not in hospital, during the period of the epidemic, running at 6 times the average for the same months in previous years. It is almost certain this is due to undiagnosed Covid-19 deaths that never make it to hospital for testing. So, if you don't try to capture the probable extra Covid -19deaths you will be fooling yourselves about the spread of the epidemic and the mortality rates.

In the years before testing was so widespread, doctors always had to write down the cause of death without having it confirmed by tests. They had to make a judgement based on the history and symptoms of the patient. There is no description, in this 3 minute clip, of what the actual guidance given is for putting Covid-19 down as cause of death. However, since the guidance runs to seven pages, it clearly amounts to a bit more than: "put down Covid-19 if there is any reason to think it could possibly have been". I expect it gives detailed guidance for how to come to a conclusion of the probable cause of death.

And the reason why this doctor has never received such guidance in the past is because this is a new disease, that doctors like him have zero experience of.

So, there is nothing sinister or shocking about this whatsoever. Also ask yourself what possible motive the Dept of Health would have for wanting to inflate the Covid-19 related death count.

But if you can produce a copy of the guidance document for us all to read and it still shocks you, then I'll take your "concern" seriously.

Until then I shall consider it just yet more of the far-right denial junk on this subject you have been serving up for weeks.
 
Last edited:

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The only thing that I will say that I hope we all agree on is: This claim should definitely be investigated, because if what he is saying is true, it is very concerning.

What are you concerned about?

I'm a retired physician, and have filled out many death certificates. We often didn't have an autopsy performed or a definitive diagnosis. If an elderly person with coronary atherosclerosis and an aortic aneurysm dies in his sleep, we might never know the precise cause of death. Did he suffer a fatal myocardial infarction? Did that aneurysm rupture? Did he throw a clot from a thigh vein to his lung and die of a massive pulmonary embolus. It can't even be ruled out that he wasn't poisoned unless the tox screen are run. The cause of death is not known precisely, but a death certificate will be filled out. You might prefer that the cause of death be left off, but a likely diagnosis is often put onto the death certificate.

I'm imagining being a working physician today. Somebody comes into my emergency room with respiratory distress and a fever. We'd do the standard evaluation including cultures of blood and sputum, and start intravenous antibiotics. Suppose I can't get a COVID-19 test, none of my other studies (cultures, serology) reveal a pathogen, perhaps the patient is known to have been exposed to coronavirus, there is no response to antibiotics as would be expected with a bacterial pathogen, etc.., and dies. What should I put on the death certificate? Well, if this is 90+% likely to be COVID - maybe we lost 1-2 people a day to respiratory illnesses last year, but 10 a day now - COVID goes on the death certificate.

It's true that I might be slightly overestimating the actual number of COVID deaths by ten or so percent, calling all ten deaths COVID when really it was only nine of them, but if I put unknown on the death certificate, the case will definitely not be considered COVID, and now I'm off by much more, missing all nine cases.

Again, what's your concern? Something sinister?
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible. "

OK, so again, I'm not an expert on how death certificates are written. My question for those who know is: is this criteria consistent with the criteria for other diseases like flu? For instance, if it is "probable" that someone died from the flu, is it listed as "presumed" on a death certificate and included in the numbers of deaths due to flu or not? If not, why the inconsistency?
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
No it isn't. This is a news channel (you don't say which one) trying as hard as it can to make a scandal out of nothing.

And you buy it because it suits your agenda of denial about this disease.

.

I don't "buy" it. I already said I don't know. I think it's worth further investigation. I may be biased, but all of us are. I, for one, don't know who to believe. When two sides swear to be telling the truth and have contradictory stories, one of them has to be lying. Which side is lying? Or are both lying to some extent? I don't know the answers. You believe the mainstream narrative because it is what you primarily listen to. There's an entirely different narrative that many others also believe. I watched a YouTube video of a doctor pointing out inconsistencies in the mainstream narrative about the pandemic. It had thousands of "likes" and only a couple dozen "dislikes." So clearly there is another narrative than many people are subscribing to. Which one is correct? I don't have a clue. It seems as though whichever side one gets "indoctrinated" with the most will be the side one chooses to believe. These aren't claims that I can verify, as I have no personal experience of any of it. As a result, for most people, beliefs about the disease are not established based on verifiable fact, they're established on the basis of faith.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
By the way, @Hubert Farnsworth, you might be interested to know that Mr. Trump's administration is privately projecting deaths from COVID-19 will double by June 1, according to a report in the New York Times. And you might be pleased to know the Administration is publicly advocating for opening the economy despite its private projections.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems as though whichever side one gets "indoctrinated" with the most will be the side one chooses to believe.

It is possible to train oneself to be resistant to indoctrination using just this rule - never believe anything without sufficient justification, only believe to the extent supported by the evidence (possible, likely, very likely, as close to certain as possible), and revise that estimate as new evidence becomes available making the belief more or less certain.

Do that and only that, and you can't be indoctrinated. All opinions will be yours, not the opinions of others downloaded into a passive mind.

You said earlier that you were very concerned by this. I asked you why, and you chose to not answer. I asked you if you thought this was sinister, and you were silent. I gave you a rational reason for putting COVID on certain death certificates, and you were mute.

This is a non-issue.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
That pretty much sums up the OP. I only wish that we RFers were not so damnably fond of non-issues. This thread threatens to go on forever now. I'm out of here. And if anyone stays, I do pray they carve on your tombstone that you wasted your life debating non-issues.

For the sake of lurkers.
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
This is an example of a death being classed as COVID-19 in the UK. There will be many more like it.

Heartbroken Syd Little breaks silence over Eddie Large's death from coronavirus

As KamalTow said in the comments section – “Heartbroken Syd Little breaks silence over Eddie Large's death from coronavirus. Eddie Large, who died from coronavirus on Thursday morning...

"He had been suffering with heart failure and unfortunately, whilst in hospital, contracted the coronavirus, which his heart was sadly not strong enough to fight.

It takes the DM until four sentences from the end to mention the actual cause of death. Is it to be another death chalked up to the virus, although it's only what tipped Eddie, bless him, over the edge? At best, the virus is just a contributing factor. At worst, for political reasons, the skewing of the figures is the latest crime against humanity. Cui bono?”
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
We have to improve sanitation methods
We already have a serious problem with this and germs becoming treatment resistant. Our sanitation methods, in general, are too good and it's a concern we are killing too many beneficial bacteria with our "scorched earth" approach to sanitation.
Where it does need improved, ironically, where it's been needed for some time, is hospitals. Everywhere else we're diverting natural selection and driving bacterial evolution in a way that makes it better at making us sick and shrugging of treatment.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
This is an example of a death being classed as COVID-19 in the UK. There will be many more like it.

Heartbroken Syd Little breaks silence over Eddie Large's death from coronavirus

As KamalTow said in the comments section – “Heartbroken Syd Little breaks silence over Eddie Large's death from coronavirus. Eddie Large, who died from coronavirus on Thursday morning...

"He had been suffering with heart failure and unfortunately, whilst in hospital, contracted the coronavirus, which his heart was sadly not strong enough to fight.

It takes the DM until four sentences from the end to mention the actual cause of death. Is it to be another death chalked up to the virus, although it's only what tipped Eddie, bless him, over the edge? At best, the virus is just a contributing factor. At worst, for political reasons, the skewing of the figures is the latest crime against humanity. Cui bono?”

At least you admit Covid killed him. If he hadn't contracted it, he wouldn't have died that day.
 
Top