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Are Creationists the Great Pretenders?

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
What a chemist can do is arrange the circumstances for a
chemical reaction. Dry the matches before trying to light
them, say.
That done, the ions and molecules have to take it
from there. You cannot push them together like legos.

Our friend is complaining of artificial conditions
(that might mimic the conditions under which life started)
but applying an artificial distinction between "natural"
and "unnatural" chemistry

He might have the makings of a good thesis for his
graduate degree in biochem, but then, it might also
be that ifn he tried to present this in his thesis defense,
he would soon be stumbling, shamefaced, from the
room. No PhD for this disgraceful sham!

Of course, the committee would have been composed of
charter members of the WWCOSSTSSTTOG,*
who were not about to let the word get out
that unnatural chemistry is the secret of life.

*world wide committee of satanic scientists to
suppress the truth of god
It's nothing more than a "heads we win, tails you lose" setup. No breakthrough? Hah! That shows only God could have done it! A pathway is discovered? Since humans were involved, that means "intelligence" was required, which means God must have been involved!
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
It goes pretty much like this ~

Someone says these words ~
"Analysis of DNA shows very little similarity, in the actual genes.”

Then there is a law that someone MUST accept their interpretation of DNA and genetic evidence or face the wrath and bullying of Muhammad (and Tas) and get embarrassed, demeaned, shunned, kicked out of the scientific church, and psychologically attacked ~ perhaps eternal scientific torment at stake after death.
Ah, so hilarious.

My interpretation is based on reality and the publicly available, published work on this topic.

Do you really think that genes are separate from DNA?

If so, please just keep quiet on these issues.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no matter how stupid they are, but creationists are not entitled to their own facts.

Contrary to Karl Rove and the right-wing/religious lie machine, you cannot just make up your own facts.
We have 50-60 year olds doing this and telling others to grow up ~ and believe this Muhammad and Tas character and behavior should be enabled.

My goodness you are so clever in your projection!

Now - LEARN about basic genetics:

Basic Genetics
Basic Genetics
Let me know when you discover that DNA analyses will be totally different from Gene analyses.

Maybe it will be in this section:
What are DNA and Genes?
What are DNA and Genes?
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
Ah, so hilarious.

My interpretation is based on reality and the publicly available, published work on this topic.

Do you really think that genes are separate from DNA?

If so, please just keep quiet on these issues.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no matter how stupid they are, but creationists are not entitled to their own facts.

Contrary to Karl Rove and the right-wing/religious lie machine, you cannot just make up your own facts.


My goodness you are so clever in your projection!

Shallow, naive, ridiculous, absurd, childish and un-original, but clever!

Now - how about you do what the clown you are apparently in love with refuses to do - LEARN about basic genetics:

Basic Genetics
Basic Genetics
Let me know when you discover that DNA analyses will be totally different from Gene analyses.

Maybe it will be in this section:
What are DNA and Genes?
What are DNA and Genes?

Could you boys just, like, stop it already?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Uh oh...

"Contained within the 3 billion letters of the human genome are about 21,000 genes. Most of our known genes code for proteins, but some code for RNA molecules."
 
Could you boys just, like, stop it already?

That is not my gender ~ however you got other right ~ a boy indeed.

Do you really think that genes are separate from DNA?

How is this relevant to this statement made by whoever else you’re referring to that said this:
“Analysis of DNA shows very little similarity, in the actual genes.”

They never mentioned anything about DNA being “separate” from genes.

Actual genes themselves don’t exist. A gene is an abstract concept used as a unit to measure the different segment sizes and sequences of DNA and separate or unite their different functions and with either/or come more various definitions of “gene.”
 
It's nothing more than a "heads we win, tails you lose" setup. No breakthrough? Hah! That shows only God could have done it! A pathway is discovered? Since humans were involved, that means "intelligence" was required, which means God must have been involved!

It’s pretty much believe in the magic that all of this stuff, life, information, coded instructions assembled itself and happened on its own or believe that there are or were a magical author(or plural) behind or in all of the stuff, life, information, coded instructions.

It will always reduce to that ~ and I don’t mind either view ~ yet even if abiogenesis were ever replicated, it still won’t resolve the above.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
We have irrefutably proved one scientific
theory here, the fact that the
creationists are pretenders, but,
they are not so great at it.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
It’s pretty much believe in the magic that all of this stuff, life, information, coded instructions assembled itself and happened on its own
Not that I've seen. Can you cite a published paper that invokes any mechanism akin to magic?

or believe that there are or were a magical author(or plural) behind or in all of the stuff, life, information, coded instructions.
I don't see too much of a distinction between supernatural acts of God and "magic".

It will always reduce to that ~ and I don’t mind either view ~ yet even if abiogenesis were ever replicated, it still won’t resolve the above.
Not for creationists, certainly. But that's to be expected since their primary interest in such science is to deny it.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
What could possibly go wrong with an already bunch of unethical human beings having the potential tools down the road to create synthetic “life?”
They're already done that. But this discussion is about the ability to demonstrate a pathway from non-living organic compounds to a living cell in order to show that such a thing was possible on the pre-biotic earth.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
They're already done that. But this discussion is about the ability to demonstrate a pathway from non-living organic compounds to a living cell in order to show that such a thing was possible on the pre-biotic earth.
Minor point maybe but the creos always present that
a "cell" must be the first life form, and of course, revel
in the complexity and start talking about 747 jets
and tornadoes.

Why though,would the "first life" be a cell?
Would we even know if was alive, or agree
that it was alive, if we saw it?

Maybe it is just a little self replicating ring
structure.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
That is not my gender ~ however you got other right ~ a boy indeed.
Super clever.
How is this relevant to this statement made by whoever else you’re referring to that said this:

“Analysis of DNA shows very little similarity, in the actual genes.”

They never mentioned anything about DNA being “separate” from genes.
OK, so what is your interpretation? What do you suppose DNA analyses entail?

While it is true that most of the genome is not genes, it is also true that genes were, for I hope obvious reasons, most often included in 'DNA analyses,' and this information is available to anyone that actually really wants to learn.

Here is an example:
Initial sequence of the chimpanzee genome and comparison with the human genome
Naturevolume 437, pages69–87 (2005)

"Here we present a draft genome sequence of the common chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes). Through comparison with the human genome, we have generated a largely complete catalogue of the genetic differences that have accumulated since the human and chimpanzee species diverged from our common ancestor, constituting approximately thirty-five million single-nucleotide changes, five million insertion/deletion events, and various chromosomal rearrangements. We use this catalogue to explore the magnitude and regional variation of mutational forces shaping these two genomes, and the strength of positive and negative selection acting on their genes. In particular, we find that the patterns of evolution in human and chimpanzee protein-coding genes are highly correlated and dominated by the fixation of neutral and slightly deleterious alleles. We also use the chimpanzee genome as an outgroup to investigate human population genetics and identify signatures of selective sweeps in recent human evolution."

Alas, by its very nature, a comparison of protein coding genes relies upon DNA sequence analyses. Thus, that paper also entails the DNA sequence analyses of the genomes.
And the results show the same things.

Here is one using mtGenomes, which was approved when used in Canids by the creationist in question but dismissed when looking at primates for some reason:

A Mitogenomic Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Complete mitochondrial (mt) genomes have proven to be extremely useful in deciphering within-order relationships even up to deep nodes. Using 454 sequencing, we sequenced 32 new complete mt genomes adding 20 previously not represented genera to the phylogenetic reconstruction of the primate tree. With 13 new sequences, the number of complete mt genomes within the parvorder Platyrrhini was widely extended, resulting in a largely resolved branching pattern among New World monkey families. We added 10 new Strepsirrhini mt genomes to the 15 previously available ones, thus almost doubling the number of mt genomes within this clade. Our data allow precise date estimates of all nodes and offer new insights into primate evolution. One major result is a relatively young date for the most recent common ancestor of all living primates which was estimated to 66-69 million years ago, suggesting that the divergence of extant primates started close to the K/T-boundary. Although some relationships remain unclear, the large number of mt genomes used allowed us to reconstruct a robust primate phylogeny which is largely in agreement with previous publications. Finally, we show that mt genomes are a useful tool for resolving primate phylogenetic relationships on various taxonomic levels."

I could go on, but that would be piling-on.

To claim that DNA analyses have little similarity in the actual genes is, according to the evidence and facts and reason, just a really really dumb thing to say.
Actual genes themselves don’t exist. A gene is an abstract concept used as a unit to measure the different segment sizes and sequences of DNA and separate or unite their different functions and with either/or come more various definitions of “gene.”
That does not match any definition of gene I am familiar with in any way.

"a unit to measure the different segment sizes"? What does that even mean?

Here is a reality-based treatment:

"This paper presents a history of the changing meanings of the term “gene,” over more than a century, and a discussion of why this word, so crucial to genetics, needs redefinition today. In this account, the first two phases of 20th century genetics are designated the “classical” and the “neoclassical” periods, and the current molecular-genetic era the “modern period.” While the first two stages generated increasing clarity about the nature of the gene, the present period features complexity and confusion. Initially, the term “gene” was coined to denote an abstract “unit of inheritance,” to which no specific material attributes were assigned. As the classical and neoclassical periods unfolded, the term became more concrete, first as a dimensionless point on a chromosome, then as a linear segment within a chromosome, and finally as a linear segment in the DNA molecule that encodes a polypeptide chain. This last definition, from the early 1960s, remains the one employed today, but developments since the 1970s have undermined its generality. Indeed, they raise questions about both the utility of the concept of a basic “unit of inheritance” and the long implicit belief that genes are autonomous agents. Here, we review findings that have made the classic molecular definition obsolete and propose a new one based on contemporary knowledge...

Here, therefore, we will propose a definition that we believe comes closer to doing justice to the idea of the “gene,” in light of current knowledge. It makes no reference to “the unit of heredity”—the long-standing sense of the term—because we feel that it is now clear that no such generic universal unit exists. By referring to DNA sequences, however, our definition embodies the hereditary dimension of genes (in a way that pure “process”-centered definitions focused on gene expression do not). Furthermore, in its emphasis on the ultimate molecular products and reference to GRNs as both evokers and mediators of the actions of those products, it recognizes the long causal chains that often operate between genes and their effects. Our provisional definition is this:

A gene is a DNA sequence (whose component segments do not necessarily need to be physically contiguous) that specifies one or more sequence-related RNAs/proteins that are both evoked by GRNs and participate as elements in GRNs, often with indirect effects, or as outputs of GRNs, the latter yielding more direct phenotypic effects.​

Nothing about a unit to measure the different segment sizes.... nothing about measuring sequences of DNA... or whatever this is supposed to mean: "... and separate or unite their different functions and with either/or come more various definitions of “gene.”"

But I am curious - how does what you wrote support the naiveté expressed here:

“Analysis of DNA shows very little similarity, in the actual genes.”
 
Not that I've seen. Can you cite a published paper that invokes any mechanism akin to magic?

There are mechanisms for change in evolution ~ not mechanisms for where information, instructions/coded programming, forces/energy etc. came from. Remains mysterious.

I don't see too much of a distinction between supernatural acts of God and "magic".

Don’t know everything in nature. Abiogenesis and evolution theory are not in it to disprove any potential author entity(or plural.) Who is to say it was your definition of “God” or any god that could have done it? Pretty shallow terms ~ considering it could be an array of different authors that have nothing to do with your definition of God. I’m guessing that any potential author that could have been behind
this would be part of nature as well.

They're already done that.

From wiki ~

“In the area of synthetic biology, a "living" artificial cell has been defined as a completely synthetically made cell that can capture energy, maintain ion gradients, contain macromolecules as well as store information and have the ability to mutate.[4] Such a cell is not technically feasible yet.”
 
Saying almost the same things in different wording. If you cannot understand deduced simplicity ~ then you cannot understand everything you copy and pasted above. Either that ~ or you’re just deliberately distorting so you can continue to demean and throw jabs.

That’s a pretty vague statement that could have been quote mined ~ neglecting the rest of what the writer wrote so I’m not sure what the writer actually meant in full detail. What I do know is that is has nothing to do with your interpretation of being “separate.”

I don’t think many will even want to continue or even communicate with you in any discussions ~ including me. You are one primitive mannered fella.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
Saying almost the same things in different wording. If you cannot understand deduced simplicity ~ then you cannot understand everything you copy and pasted above. Either that ~ or you’re just deliberately distorting so you can continue to demean and throw jabs.
LOL!

You've never taken a science class, have you?
That’s a pretty vague statement that could have been quote mined ~ neglecting the rest of what the writer wrote so I’m not sure what the writer actually meant in full detail. What I do know is that is has nothing to do with your interpretation of being “separate.”

Ok, great - since you are too lazy or too afraid to actually look things up, I will have to do it for you:

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

SENSIBLE PERSON:
I would say the best evidence is that genealogy of species via DNA analysis confirms morphology. What this means in basic terms is that the "tree of life" AKA the "family tree" of species based upon their resemblances to each other very closely matches the family tree of species based upon analysis of their DNA.
This was presented earlier, and i touched on it, but since the 'looks like!' morphology is one of the main arguments for common descent, it deserves another look.​
CREATIONIST CLAIMING 4 DECADES OF STUDY:
1. It is primarily circular reasoning. Because you can put together a graphical 'tree', showing plausibility of descent, does not provide evidence for descent. The conjectured graphic does not prove itself.
2. "Analysis of DNA" shows very little similarity, in the actual genes. Certain haplogroups, like canidae, mentioned earler, HAVE the evidence of descendancy. But to extrapolate that to all living things is flawed. It is not the case. There is NO GENETIC EVIDENCE of descendancy in cross genetic architectures. There is real genetic evidence of descendancy within canidae, felidae, equus, etc, but nothing to suggest any of them came from, or are becoming, something else. The 'high genetic walls,' that the hecklers love to ridicule, PREVENT any departure from the parent architecture. That is repeatable, observable, scientific FACT.

Plausibility, and 'looks like!' imagination, is not scientific evidence.​
Oh me, oh my! The CONTEXT totally changes everything!


NOPE.

Actually makes him look even MORE foolish, if that is even possible.

While I am at it, I should also point out this wizard's "definition" of 'haplogroup':

"The haplogroup is all the haplotypes together."

Is laughably wrong.


I don’t think many will even want to continue or even communicate with you in any discussions

Good for you.

Will they want to communicate with someone that claims decades of study and a desire to discuss science and evidence, but who makes it quite clear he studied nothing and dismisses science and evidence and just calls names?
Maybe you will. Check out that which you are defending:

Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

~ including me.
Oh, woe is me...
You are one primitive mannered fella.
You are one absurd enabler of liars and frauds.

I don't suffer fools or charlatans or blowhards, so I'm putting you on ignore anyway.. Not worth the effort.
 
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Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Minor point maybe but the creos always present that
a "cell" must be the first life form, and of course, revel
in the complexity and start talking about 747 jets
and tornadoes.

Why though,would the "first life" be a cell?
Would we even know if was alive, or agree
that it was alive, if we saw it?

Maybe it is just a little self replicating ring
structure.
That's a good point. Exactly what that first "life" was is likely a mystery unto itself, in addition to how it actually came to be.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
There are mechanisms for change in evolution ~ not mechanisms for where information, instructions/coded programming, forces/energy etc. came from. Remains mysterious.
So no, you cannot cite a published paper that invokes anything akin to "magic".

Don’t know everything in nature.
That's why we still have science.

Abiogenesis and evolution theory are not in it to disprove any potential author entity(or plural.)
Quite true. Many creationists would be well advised to understand that basic fact.

Who is to say it was your definition of “God” or any god that could have done it? Pretty shallow terms ~ considering it could be an array of different authors that have nothing to do with your definition of God. I’m guessing that any potential author that could have been behind
this would be part of nature as well.
That's the thing about gods....they can do absolutely anything and act in any way imaginable. That's why whether or not any gods were involved in anything is outside of science.

From wiki ~

“In the area of synthetic biology, a "living" artificial cell has been defined as a completely synthetically made cell that can capture energy, maintain ion gradients, contain macromolecules as well as store information and have the ability to mutate.[4] Such a cell is not technically feasible yet.”
Immaculate creation: birth of the first synthetic cell
 
So no, you cannot cite a published paper that invokes anything akin to "magic".

So then accordingly ~ all of the most integral mechanisms are left out, leaving them currently as magic, or mysterious.

That link, I suppose if the parameters are narrowed a bit ~ can call whatever “living” if choose to. Never met the criteria I posted from wiki ~ so i suppose it’s up to whatever one views as “living.”
 
That's the thing about gods....they can do absolutely anything and act in any way imaginable. That's why whether or not any gods were involved in anything is outside of science.

Or they couldn’t do just anything or act in any way imaginable ~ pending on however one would want to define.
 
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