J Bryson
Well-Known Member
He gave boobies to Captain America. To quote another giant in the industry, 'nuff said.
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Are Comic Books Literature?
- Thread starter Trey of Diamonds
- Start date
He gave boobies to Captain America. To quote another giant in the industry, 'nuff said.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Um...most artists give guys boobies in comic books.
J Bryson
Well-Known Member
Most artists give guys a decently muscled chest. Liefeld gave honkers to an American icon.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I was actually being facetious. "Literature" is one of those things that is an artificial construct with no consistent criteria, so it's pretty useless as a label anyway.
I've read numerous "genre fiction" novels that blow many "classics of literature" out of the water, yet they will never be classified as "literature".
It goes the same with graphic novels - many are of very high quality. However, the visual aspect separates them from novels enough that defining them as "literature", seems a tad silly. This isn't a comment on quality, only on incorrectness of definition.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Most artists give guys a decently muscled chest. Liefeld gave honkers to an American icon.
Yes, that's a tad excessive, but as I said, most comic book artists do that to a degree, and I would say this is not Liefeld's finest work either. Plus, it's really irrelevant who the character is, isn't it?
J Bryson
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't want them, they look painful.
Heh. Different Storm, but I'm sure that you knew that.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
If he'd given them to Storm, I don't think that we'd be having this discussion, so the character is somewhat relevant.
Heh, yes, the gender of the character is relevant, but the specific identity isn't.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
I figured it out, but there was a knee-jerk reaction of "me?"
J Bryson
Well-Known Member
It kind of is, though, as if he'd done this to a less iconic figure, it wouldn't have received as much publicity. If you screw up in front of a thousand readers in a small press comic book, no one will care. If you screw up in front of millions of fanboys and fangirls, though, and to a character that so many people have such an affection for.....
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
All I'm saying is all in all his art is not that bad. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of comic book artists who are much worse than him. He is mediocre, and is not in the class of artists that make a comic unreadable.
J Bryson
Well-Known Member
I pretty much agree. Defining literature is the same impossible task of defining art; the criteria varies too wildly. I suppose my vague definition of lit' as a poem/novel/play/etc. as something that best represents the era it was written, and continues to offer some relevant insight into the modern world is about as ambiguous yet close as I can get. So definitely, there are literary quality comics out there.
Oh man I'd love to make this a Liefield bashing thread 'cause if anyone deserved it...
Then again, I'm critical of the Jim Lees of the industry as well- the 90s heralded a decade of some woefully mediocre talent, foil covers, exorbitantly inflated prices, and just plain silly characters. But I won't go down that path.
Moore's From Hell is as exemplary a literary expression as anything Pynchon has done. Maus is as important and heart wrenchingly honest as To Kill a Mockingbird imho; Jimmy Corrigan is representative of literature in that it is packed with symbolism, explores universal themes like alienation, and can be incredibly frustrating and obtuse. Scalped is equal to most crime literature I've read from Chandler to Hammett. League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is a literary comic about, well, literary characters. And it's absolutely flawless. I could go on and on...
But I also agree with that solid writing trumps art- of course as a nerdy 7 year old first picking up my older brothers copies of the Dark Phoenix saga it was all about the Byrne/Austin eye candy. The emotional punch of Jean's death still knocked me on my *** though. But the older I got the more forgiving I was of mediocre visuals as long as the stories and characters were compelling. Grant Morrisson's brilliant Animal Man is a good example: horrible art, wonderful writing. But it's always best when both are exemplary: like Moore and Veitch on Swamp Thing, Miracle Man, the recent Whedon/Cassady run on Astonishing X-Men (Cassady is as near a perfect comic artist as Neal Adams), Watchmen, From Hell, League', DeMatteis and Jon Muth's Moonshadow (which I think far surpasses Gaiman's Sandman stuff as an adult fairy tale wonderfully written and painted). I'll think of more.
But all I need suggest now is that Super-F***ers is awesome. If you have the sense of humor of a 12 year old boy that is. And I do. It amuses me.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
First off "graphic literature" has been with us a very long time. The oldest 'comic book' is from the 1700's and illuminated manuscripts have been using imagery to tell stories for centuries prior to that.
Many of these works were for adults and were about deep social issues such as the rise of industrialism and the the subsequent rise of workers rights movements.
Anyone who doubts the power of the graphic novel (even without words) should check out the work of Frans Masereel. His pieces are amazingly moving and his stories are filled with both humor, horror and a wicked subversiveness.
Frans Masereel: The City
wa:do
ps. don't forget the long and noble history of illustration story telling in the East!
Many of these works were for adults and were about deep social issues such as the rise of industrialism and the the subsequent rise of workers rights movements.
Anyone who doubts the power of the graphic novel (even without words) should check out the work of Frans Masereel. His pieces are amazingly moving and his stories are filled with both humor, horror and a wicked subversiveness.
Frans Masereel: The City
wa:do
ps. don't forget the long and noble history of illustration story telling in the East!
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Nanda
Polyanna
Some titles I'm fond ofthat are definately worthy of being called literature:
Maus 1 & 2 - Art Spiegelman
Blankets, Carnet de Voyage, and Goodbye, Chunky Rice - Craig Thompson
Grickle and Further Grickle - Graham Annable
Persepolis - Marjane Satrapi
Blue Pills - Frederik Peeters
Gemma Bovary - Posy Simmonds
La Perdida - Jessica Abel
City of Glass - Paul Auster, David Mazzucchelli, Paul Karasik
Pride of Baghdad - Brian K Vaughan, Niko Henrichon
Box Office Poison - Alex Robinson
Lone Wolf and Cub - Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima
Ghost World - Daniel Clowes
Maus 1 & 2 - Art Spiegelman
Blankets, Carnet de Voyage, and Goodbye, Chunky Rice - Craig Thompson
Grickle and Further Grickle - Graham Annable
Persepolis - Marjane Satrapi
Blue Pills - Frederik Peeters
Gemma Bovary - Posy Simmonds
La Perdida - Jessica Abel
City of Glass - Paul Auster, David Mazzucchelli, Paul Karasik
Pride of Baghdad - Brian K Vaughan, Niko Henrichon
Box Office Poison - Alex Robinson
Lone Wolf and Cub - Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima
Ghost World - Daniel Clowes
Don Penguinoini
Modi.
Does Charlie and the Chocolate Factory count?
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
I totally agree, this is a must have or at least a must read!
wa:do