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Are Catholics Christians?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Sorry. I find it hard to believe you were ever really Catholic if you say all prayers at mass were directed to Mary and the saints.

If you attended Catholic mass you would know that's not true...
I, on numerous occasions, was wondering that myself as there's way too much false "information" he was putting out. I can understand how those who never went to mass or maybe only as a kid could make such errors, but not an adult.
 

4consideration

*
Premium Member
I, on numerous occasions, was wondering that myself as there's way too much false "information" he was putting out. I can understand how those who never went to mass or maybe only as a kid could make such errors, but not an adult.
I got chuckle out of it. It's so far out there.

I think you're being more generous in assuming error than I'm inclined to be on the matter, simply because such a claim strikes me more as something someone heard someone else claim, than something one would take away based upon one's own experience.

With the repetition of prayers at each mass I think even an elementary school student that attends mass could identify who the prayers are directed to...and you are correct...most of those prayers are directed to God.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Being a Christian has to do with the individuals belief concerning Christ. Not the name on the church. I believe that there are Catholic christians, Baptist christians, Mormon Christians, Jehovah's witnesses Christians. Etc. And so on. Its not for me to tell someone who believes in Christ perhaps differently than me that they are not a real Christian. My personal thoughts of course.
Who gets to decide who is and who isn't a Christian? Sounds like a good way to include some and exclude others. Good thing we don't practice burning at the stake anymore.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
I believe Catholics vary. Some are born again and some are just nominal Christians.
They were first called Christians not because they were born again but, rather, because their community became associated with Christ in a Greek-speaking town. (Acts 11:26)
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
I don't believe the Catholic church teaches the Gospel or Salvation but then I have never been through a catechism class. From the Catholics I have talked to the Gospel and Salvation are news to them.
It does teach this, but not very vigorously; you have to study on your own. But if you listen to what is spoken during mass you will learn of it.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
Ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Do I need to explain these verses?
I think you are claiming that Catholics worship idols. Nonsense.
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Thirdly, the cherubim and seraphim were statuary, with some of them on the Ark of the Covenant, so obviously all such statuary cannot be prohibited according to scripture. Also, Moses was ordered by God to have a serpent on the staff he carried into the exodus.
Yes, good point.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
It does teach this, but not very vigorously; you have to study on your own. But if you listen to what is spoken during mass you will learn of it.

That's not altogether true. Most, if not every parish provides a continuous adult ed program. For smaller parishes there are programs facilitated by the diocese. Scripture is a priority. There are Catholic colleges and universities that offer online ed programs, some of which offer a collaborative with a parish which helps with the cost.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I saw this post before I went to bed last night. It is almost noon, the following day. At the time I saw the post, I mused to myself that the post is adolescent. From what I am seeing here in America, being Christian might be of very little value. These days the various beliefs seem to be caught up in hating each other, and that makes me sad. Now, in the 21st century, most people with access to the Internet also have ready access to theological documents of their faiths, be it Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. Factually, the day of the religious authority standing between us and G_d, God, or Allah SWT should be over. They came into existence because people were illiterate, had no books, and were told they were too ignorant to understand.

It is embarrassing to me that we are expected to rely on the word of some authority when I can pick up almost any document and find it printed in my native English, or dozens of other languages. I am well enough educated that understanding what I read should not be an issue. It is obvious from reading religious documents that our creator does not call us to the hatred and disdain for others that I see around me. "And now, oh man, you are without excuse ...."

You may consider this a rant.

I believe much of scripture can be easily understood but some of it can only be understood with the guidance of the Paraclete. I have encountered Bible teachers who sometimes misinterpreted scripture.

I believe I agree. One does not need a doctorate to figure out what the command "love thy neighbor" means.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Youd have to go to RIA, but more important go to Mass and parcipate in it without forethought. Once you understand Mass is relaying jesus life, death, and resurrection in one sitting, the only thing that makes it pagan is the cultural traditions that are embedded in it (just as all religiond) but at its core, only jesus is the center of the church. Whoever says jesus is not, is not seeing christians as one body of christ. The Church believes all baptized christians are christians. One doesnt need to be officially catholic to be christian.

It was news to them? I wouldnt be surprised, really.

I know a few catholics that didnt know more intimately about their own faith. My friend didnt like I was telling her all I learned as a convert both negative and positive. Had nothing to do with paganism though; thats cultural. Actually, to me all protestants that are going further from The Church are going further from their Catholic roots. The roots: apostles to christ to father. If one wants to follow the bible its a contradition to use the apostles writings but then cut off their teachings at Pope Linus.

Sbrugs.

I believe that is the gospel of Paul as opposed to the gospel of Jesus but even so the message is not as clear as it could be. Certainly Paul's Gospel pertains to salvation and the gospel of Jesus but one must understand what that means.

I believe that is like the Muslims saying they believe in Jesus but then don't keep His word making lame excuses for not doing so. If a person is not born again then he doesn't have Jesus and is not in the body.

I don't believe baptizing people makes them Christians. I believe a person must receive Jesus as Lord and Savior to be a Christian.

I believe I am sure that happens in all faiths My mother-in-law did not believe the Paraclete has personal characteristics and she was raised Baptist although most of her life she didn't attend church.

I believe I am not sure what that means in practice. Most Protestants who are serious about their faith recognize that there have been teachers associated with the Catholic Church who have a valuable testimony. It is rare for a person to think they are the sole authority on the Bible and we know what that is: vanity.

I believe the reality is that both Luther and Calvin were products of the Catholic Church. There would have been no division in the church if it hadn't been so insistent that the Pope decides what orthodoxy is and all else is heresy. I can't say I have ever heard a protestant state that any Pope was a great contributor to a better understanding of the Bible.
 

Neb

Active Member
Blasphemy? No, not even by the logic you are using.
So how do we follow logic? Was it from our own interpretation or from the Bible?

If you believe God became flesh as Jesus, and Mary was his mother, it follows that Mary was the Mother of God in the flesh, Jesus.
You need to separate the Word/God, i.e., from ETERNITY, from the flesh, i.e., STEPPED INTO TIME, to avoid confusion.

I believe the Word/God became flesh based on John 1:14. When the Word, who was God and “was with the God/Father” became flesh, He, the Lord Jesus, became the Son of Mary in the flesh and NOT the Son of Mary from ETERNITY where the Word/God was in the beginning with the God/Father. Here is a verse that you could read: “concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,” –Romans 1:3.

You need to see the transition from ETERNITY “and the Word was God” –John 1:1c, where Mary was NOT, to TIME “and the Word became flesh” –John 1:14, where Mary was, because if you don’t then it will be questionable, i.e., if Jesus is God why did He die, God does not die, so in order for God to die He must become flesh like us.

Read these verses as well:

Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Phil 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Phil 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

even death on the cross” God does not die so the Word/God must become flesh to die.
 

Neb

Active Member
But, even if a person doesn't believe that -- but believes Jesus was the Son of God -- there is still the meaning of "of" that is an expression of cause, and somewhat interchangeable with "from" where to say Mary is the Mother of God is also saying Mary is the Mother from God.

So, if you are saying it is blasphemy to refer to Mary as either the Mother of God, or Mother from God -- you are, in effect saying that Jesus came from some other source than God. Do you think Jesus was sourced from somewhere other than God?
You could parse it to whatever interpretation you want but if you base this assumption on the Bible your premise will not deduce to your own favorable conclusion, therefore, your logic is flawed.

The Word/God was not from/of any source like the Word/God was made by God/Father.

“All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” John 1:3
 

Neb

Active Member
The theologian is to pursue an ever deeper understanding of the Word of God found in the inspired Scriptures.
But you said
The sacred writers of the Gospels were theologians.
The religious leaders: the Pharisees, Scribes, the High Priests and the Sadducees were the theologians in the Bible.

God gave His word to the Prophets in the OT and to the Apostles in the NT also known today as the Bible or the Holy Scriptures.

Do they have to “pursue an ever deeper understanding of the Word of God” as theologians like the Pharisees, Scribes, High Priests and the Sadducees or the theologians of today? NO! The Word of God was given directly to the Prophets and the Apostles to preach it to the people without adding and subtracting from the very Word of God. Today we have this very Word of God or theology intact in one book called the Bible. Now, because of the absence of the Prophets and the Apostles, do we need theologians to interpret the Bible to us?

For example:

"While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them," -Matthew 22:41

“What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” -Matthew 22:42

“The son of David,” they replied. He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says, --Matthew 22:43

“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’ -Matthew 22:44

"If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?” -Matthew 22:45

"No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions. -Matthew 22:46

So, what is it that these theologians, the Pharisees, did not understand?
 
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