There goes the pathos and ethos again but no logos.
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Are Catholics Christians?
- Thread starter Ranting
- Start date
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
If you believe that the saints and us Live on in Christ Why would Praying through the departed be in any way wrong.
Images are only images and can help to centre our minds in prayer, much like an image of the cross does.
However I see little to commend Mariology as a theology. Which can be more important to some that Christianity. It can sometimes be seen to be the tail wagging the dog.
Images are only images and can help to centre our minds in prayer, much like an image of the cross does.
However I see little to commend Mariology as a theology. Which can be more important to some that Christianity. It can sometimes be seen to be the tail wagging the dog.
Really? You're the one trying to equate "graven image", literally means idols in Exodus 20:3-4, and the "cherubim" in Exodus 25:18-22 into one context so you could justify the idols in your belief as “statues” [“statuary cannot be prohibited according to scripture”] like the “cherubim” and instead of arguing logically you appeal to the readers with your heartbreaking stories. Then you call me an anti-Catholic and a bigot. What is the question again? “Are Catholics Christians?” You want the truth or are you afraid of the truth?
How many instructions do you see or read on how to pray directly to God in the Bible?
You are making all these excuses about Mary and the saints and all these notions that they can hear your prayers, your petitions, then pass it along to the Lord Jesus then, to God, but would you rather pray directly to God as per instruction that is given in the Bible?
I could understand a fellow Christian, who is alive, would pray for me but for a dead person to pray for me, I don’t think so. Dead is dead and no power to do anything at all. Dead people who are alive with God in heaven do not have any saying at all with what goes on here on earth because they are not God.
What’s wrong with asking God directly?
Why you need to go through the dead when you are NOT even sure if they are really in heaven with God when you could ask God directly.
Use your common sense.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
There are probably some who push the envelop on that but how far is too far is another question. I guess my feeling is that I'm not their judge-- the pay is lousy.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm not making excuses but merely citing what many people believe. If one doesn't believe as such, that's no big deal to me since I don't do it either.
But we know the early church did as such, and Jesus said that he would guide his church until the end of time and Paul said that the flock was to follow the traditions that the apostles had left them with. IOW, praying for the dead and asking the heavenly saints to pray for them to God was done, and we know that with certainty. Now, whether those actions are the right thing to do may be another matter that's probably more subjective than objective.
I never said it was wrong, nor does the RCC teach that it's wrong-- quite the contrary as the vast majority of the prayers at any given mass are said directly to God.
See above.
You are not making excuses, you’re just saying, right?
How do we correct these errors? We use the Bible as a reference, right?
“But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” -Matthew 6:7
“Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.” -Matthew 6:8
“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.” –Matthew 6:9
It’s very, very clear that only to the Father one should pray to and not to any dead person, right?
The Lord Jesus and Paul did not say anything in the Bible about a tradition asking the dead to pray for them. Dead are not omniscient, only God is.
I was a Catholic and I know where prayers were directed at during the mass invoking all the saints and Mary so please spare me the spin.
”Actions” are always “objective” and what is subjective is the thought expressing it objectively with action. Action originates from a subjective mind so the intent is very objective and cannot be denied.
It is obvious that some people who profess to know the Catholic Church rely only on 'the grape vine', another words, gossip, and then spew it at every opportunity, which amounts to giving 'false witness'.
Disagreeing with the teachings of the Church is one thing, there are beliefs that I do no agree with, but they must be based on what the teaching actually is and not what someone simply thinks he knows. it is to the Church alone to interpret its teachings. A common and persistent error among enemies of the Church are the distortions presented concerning the place of Mary in the Church.
The honor we give to God alone is properly called adoration, the highest honor we can give. The honor we give to Mary and the saints is called veneration. Proper veneration of the saints does not interfere with the worship due to God, but rather fosters it. "Our communion with those in heaven, provided that it is understood in the fuller light of faith according to its genuine nature, in no way weakens, but conversely, more thoroughly enriches the worship we give to God the Father, through Christ, in the Spirit." With this understanding, see that proper veneration of Mary does not detract from worship of God. Even as the Mother of the Savior, Mary has a place that is in every way subordinate to and dependent upon that of her Son, who is the one mediator between God and humanity. The maternal role that Mary fulfills toward us as Mother of the Church "in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power."
And from some of the original Reformers;
Martin Luther: "It is an artcle of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Works of Luther, V. 11, pp319-320; V. 6, p 510)
John Calvin: "there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)
Ulrich Zwingli: "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639
Apparently, you did not know. What are you know?
The Rosary is a meditation, a contemplative prayer. Without this the Rosary is a body without a soul, and its recitation is in danger of becoming a mechanical repetition of formulas and of going counter to the warning of Christ: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words" (Mt. 6:7). By its nature praying the Rosary calls for a quiet rhythm and a lingering pace, helping the individual to meditate on the mysteries of the Lord's life.
Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).Who possess a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).
Martin Luther
Martin Luther: "It is an artcle of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Works of Luther, V. 11, pp319-320; V. 6, p 510)
John Calvin: "there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)
Ulrich Zwingli: "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639
Disagreeing with the teachings of the Church is one thing, there are beliefs that I do no agree with, but they must be based on what the teaching actually is and not what someone simply thinks he knows. it is to the Church alone to interpret its teachings. A common and persistent error among enemies of the Church are the distortions presented concerning the place of Mary in the Church.
The honor we give to God alone is properly called adoration, the highest honor we can give. The honor we give to Mary and the saints is called veneration. Proper veneration of the saints does not interfere with the worship due to God, but rather fosters it. "Our communion with those in heaven, provided that it is understood in the fuller light of faith according to its genuine nature, in no way weakens, but conversely, more thoroughly enriches the worship we give to God the Father, through Christ, in the Spirit." With this understanding, see that proper veneration of Mary does not detract from worship of God. Even as the Mother of the Savior, Mary has a place that is in every way subordinate to and dependent upon that of her Son, who is the one mediator between God and humanity. The maternal role that Mary fulfills toward us as Mother of the Church "in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power."
And from some of the original Reformers;
Martin Luther: "It is an artcle of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Works of Luther, V. 11, pp319-320; V. 6, p 510)
John Calvin: "there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)
Ulrich Zwingli: "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639
Apparently, you did not know. What are you know?
The Rosary is a meditation, a contemplative prayer. Without this the Rosary is a body without a soul, and its recitation is in danger of becoming a mechanical repetition of formulas and of going counter to the warning of Christ: "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words" (Mt. 6:7). By its nature praying the Rosary calls for a quiet rhythm and a lingering pace, helping the individual to meditate on the mysteries of the Lord's life.
Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).Who possess a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Our prayer should include the Mother of God.. .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor.. .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her...He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary. (Personal Prayer Book, 1522).
Martin Luther
Martin Luther: "It is an artcle of faith that Mary is the Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact." (Works of Luther, V. 11, pp319-320; V. 6, p 510)
John Calvin: "there have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Mt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this our Lord Jesus Christ is called the firstborn. This is not because there was a second or third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or no there was any question of the second." (Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562)
Ulrich Zwingli: "I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."." (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, in Evang. Luc., Op. comp., V6,1 P. 639
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
These verses say literally nothing about the issue of prayer to or for the dead. However, here from 2 Timothy:
[16] May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiph'orus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains,
[17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me --
[18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day -- and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus...
Notice that Paul is appealing to God for the mercy of someone who has died.
Again, we know that the early church did believe that the living could pray for the dead and ask them to intercede, and that this was also done by Jews preceding Jesus as well as what shows up in 2 Maccabees 12, regardless as to whether you don't accept that as being part of the canon. Either way, it was done.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
First of all, it is not at all assumed nor taught in Catholic theology that the dead are "omniscient", which you should know since you used to be Catholic. .
Secondly, the Bible doesn't include all that Jesus and the Twelve may have believed, but we do see certain actions coming out of the early church that had to originate somewhere.
Finally, since you believe it's not right to pray for or through the dead to God, then don't do it, but then realize that others will make their own choices, regardless as to whether you or I may agree with them.
Personally, I think that the most Christ-like Christianity is the most inclusive Christianity.
The judgemental, divisive, and exclusive forms of Christianity seem much less so. They sound more like the Pharisees of old, self righteous and legalistic.
Jesus didn't seem to particularly like them either.
Jus' sayin'
Tom
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Especially since religious beliefs are almost always "unfalsifiable", including which set of scriptures are to be used.
Mary was the mother of the Lord Jesus in the flesh. The Word became flesh –John 1:14, or IOW, God became flesh and Mary was the mother of the Lord Jesus in the flesh, IOW again, Mary should NOT be called the "mother of God" but the "mother of Jesus" while he was in the flesh.
God does not have a mother. If Mary was the mother of God then the Holy Spirit should be called the Father/God. The reason why the Word became flesh is that this Flesh must die on the cross to save sinners. Since God does not die it must become flesh to die. Now, Mary was a good woman and she died like anyone else and I believed Mary is in heaven with God as we speak but placing Mary on a pedestal and being idolized by the sympathizers is nothing but idolatry.
In heaven, there is only ONE who can hear us and that is, the omnipotent and omniscient God. Mary is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.
According to the Bible, the Lord Jesus is NOT nailed on the cross anymore so we should NOT always think the Lord Jesus still nailed on the cross but as the risen Christ who is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God. We should celebrate the risen Christ and NOT the crucified Christ.
Do not let these citations from these Protestants, like they were supporting the adoration of Mary, misled you because what they were saying here was about the “virgin birth” and it has nothing to do with the article written above about how or why the rcc place Mary on a pedestal to be adored by these symphatizers.
The “virgin birth” is one of the most contested events in the New Testament because without the “virgin birth” John 1:1 “and the Word was God” would NOT have become “and Word became flesh” –John 1:14 and the birth of Jesus would be just like an ordinary birth by Joseph and the whole Book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John would have been in question right from the start of their Books.
“The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.” –Matthew 1:23
In Isaiah 7:14, in the Septuagint/LXX/OG, it says, “virgin/Parthenos” but Moffatt corrupted it by saying “a young woman with child” instead, meaning: not a “virgin” anymore, thus denying the virgin birth in Matthew 1:23.
You mean pluralism