Are Catholics Christians?

[joelr]

And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death Is the catholic church and the Vatican and the pope >> Thyatira<< >> Mystery Babylon?!?! I think so , not by my thoughts but the sword of GodJesus! So as it say they will not be Raptured with the true church {BrideOf Christ } But will have to go through Jacobs Troubles!>> So Catholics are not Christian !

First of all it does not actually say "catholic church and the Vatican and the pope >>"

It says "and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

All it is saying is : "All the churches shall know I am he".........Where in the Christ do you get your ridiculous version from? You added words AND a different meaning?


Anyway, "catholic" was just a word that meant universal. When different sects including the Gnostic Christians were trying to become the orthodox version the winner would call themselves catholic.
Then way later in 12AD the Roman Catholic church formed with a Pope and all that. 1000 years later.

 

[metis]

I wonder if the past illiteracy of the populace has caused some of those in authority to lead us down the "Yellow Brick Road"? The thing about Transubstantiation is one of the nuttier examples. The Muslims have this thing about the Qur'an having to occupy the highest place in the room when not in use. And, yes, I think of that every time I see mine.

In order to better understand "transubstantiation", one needs to remember the Greek influence, especially Aristotle but also even Plato, with the latter's philosophy on the "essence" of things. It's no where near as "nuttier" as one may think.

Now, as for me, I have no particular belief in that one way or another.

 

[Neb]

I've seen plenty of Protestant billboards with the preachers' photos taking up nearly the entire photo and Jesus nowhere to be found.

"Jesus nowhere to be found" Are you implying that an image of Jesus should be on the “Protestant billboards” instead of the preachers’? Did you really think that the depiction of Jesus is the true image of the Lord Jesus? How about Mary, the mother of Jesus, did you really think she was a white woman? You should examine first if these images were true before commenting. These are false images of both the Lord Jesus and Mary and that’s idolatry.

“Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.” –John 4:24

“God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” –John 4:24

Spirit and images, are they the same? No, they are not the same because the spirit: you cannot see, while the images: you can, right? Which one is right? Or which one is the “true worshiper” God is seeking?

So, the true worshipers of God are those who worship Him in spirit, and not by the things one can see like images or any depiction of any saints, right?

 

[Neb]

Just because Protestants don't have the same kinds of idols Catholics do doesn't mean they don't have them.

You are explicitly saying that Catholics have idols. ”the same kinds of idols Catholics do” = Idolatary, right? And implying Protestants have them too but can’t say it explicitly because you have no proof like the RCC do, right?

 

[Neb]

Actually you do because it's no where near as clear-cut as you're implying.

The words "NO" and "NOT" is as clear or definite as one can perceive or understand otherwise, God would have said something like: some, maybe, or it depends on the situation, which really not as “clear-cut” as NO and NOT.

 

[Neb]

Secondly, what a "graven image" is is never defined, thus subject to all sorts of interpretation.


Thirdly, the cherubim and seraphim were statuary, with some of them on the Ark of the Covenant, so obviously all such statuary cannot be prohibited according to scripture. Also, Moses was ordered by God to have a serpent on the staff he carried into the exodus.

This is a classic rcc argument. You are conflating two different contexts, different messages, into one so you could justify your idols. Exodus 20:3-4 is about forbidden idols and if you stay in these contexts, i.e., analyze the meaning of this context, you should be able to understand that it has nothing to do with Exodus 25:18-22.
What is the “clear-cut” message in Exodus 25:18-22? Was it about idolatry? No, it was about the making of “two cherubim”, right? Now, are these two messages related to each other? No, not at all.

 

[Neb]

And finally, the real issue is to whom or what does one pray to, and the answer to that with both Catholics and the Orthodox is God.

“the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.” –John 4:24

Who do you think God is seeking, the one saying hail mary or just the Our Father in heaven?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't believe the Catholic church teaches the Gospel or Salvation but then I have never been through a catechism class. From the Catholics I have talked to the Gospel and Salvation are news to them.

Youd have to go to RIA, but more important go to Mass and parcipate in it without forethought. Once you understand Mass is relaying jesus life, death, and resurrection in one sitting, the only thing that makes it pagan is the cultural traditions that are embedded in it (just as all religiond) but at its core, only jesus is the center of the church. Whoever says jesus is not, is not seeing christians as one body of christ. The Church believes all baptized christians are christians. One doesnt need to be officially catholic to be christian.

It was news to them? I wouldnt be surprised, really.

I know a few catholics that didnt know more intimately about their own faith. My friend didnt like I was telling her all I learned as a convert both negative and positive. Had nothing to do with paganism though; thats cultural. Actually, to me all protestants that are going further from The Church are going further from their Catholic roots. The roots: apostles to christ to father. If one wants to follow the bible its a contradition to use the apostles writings but then cut off their teachings at Pope Linus.

Sbrugs.

 

[Neb]

First of all, Catholics, nor the Orthodox, pray to statuary/icons as such an act is strictly prohibited by both churches.

Secondly, what a "graven image" is is never defined, thus subject to all sorts of interpretation.

Thirdly, the cherubim and seraphim were statuary, with some of them on the Ark of the Covenant, so obviously all such statuary cannot be prohibited according to scripture. Also, Moses was ordered by God to have a serpent on the staff he carried into the exodus.

Your “First” pov: “pray to statuary/icons as such an act is strictly prohibited”,
Then after defining what a "graven image" is and what is not a "graven image" on your “Secondly” pov by means of equating Exodus 20:3-4 with Exodus 25:18-22 you came to a conclusion on your “Thirdly” pov: “so obviously all such statuary cannot be prohibited according to scripture”.

Statues “cannot be prohibited according to scripture” just don’t “pray to statuary/icons as such an act is strictly prohibited” and these were based on Exodus 20:3-4 with Exodus 25:18-22, right?[/QUOTE]

 

[Ellen Brown]

In order to better understand "transubstantiation", one needs to remember the Greek influence, especially Aristotle but also even Plato, with the latter's philosophy on the "essence" of things. It's no where near as "nuttier" as one may think.

Now, as for me, I have no particular belief in that one way or another.

Perhaps should have said "Nutty to me". I rant about being kind to others, and I was unkind. If others knew what I actually believe ...

 

[metis]

The words "NO" and "NOT" is as clear or definite as one can perceive or understand otherwise, God would have said something like: some, maybe, or it depends on the situation, which really not as “clear-cut” as NO and NOT.

You're relating it to the wrong things, so maybe go back and read it in context.

 

[metis]

This is a classic rcc argument. You are conflating two different contexts, different messages, into one so you could justify your idols. Exodus 20:3-4 is about forbidden idols and if you stay in these contexts, i.e., analyze the meaning of this context, you should be able to understand that it has nothing to do with Exodus 25:18-22.
What is the “clear-cut” message in Exodus 25:18-22? Was it about idolatry? No, it was about the making of “two cherubim”, right? Now, are these two messages related to each other? No, not at all.

It's related to Jewish Law for one. Since Jews were being taught by God through Abraham and later Moses, having a graven image on the Ark and on Moses' staff is significant whether you want to recognize that or not.

If you were to look at 1st Temple artifacts, there were many carvings that have been found right in Jerusalem itself and, as a matter of fact, the most recent issue of BAR has a lengthy article on them.

Catholics simply do not worship statuary, so having a statue or using it as a reminder cannot logically be viewed as an "idol".

 

[metis]

“the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.” –John 4:24

Who do you think God is seeking, the one saying hail mary or just the Our Father in heaven?

The "hail Mary" is like saying "I honor you, Mary", whereas the prayers are to God, although sometimes through saints, of which Mary is believed to be one. "The communion of saints" is a reference to that process, and we know that members in the very early church were doing that. Much like one may say to another living person "Please pray for me", the early church believed that there was no insurmountable gulf between the living and the dead "saints".

 

[metis]

This is a classic rcc argument. You are conflating two different contexts, different messages, into one so you could justify your idols.

In Catholicism, a statue or icon or site may be "venerated", not worshiped, but an idol by definition is worshiped.

BTW, I'm not Catholic, I don't worship idols, and your accusations against Catholics and Orthodox on this are really quite illogical.

BTW, do you have any statuary in your house? any pictures? any "prized possessions" [veneration]?

 

[Ellen Brown]

Seriously? You would waste your time, that God has given you, to debate the suitability of other believers ? I am disappointed.

 

[Neb]

In Catholicism, a statue or icon or site may be "venerated", not worshiped, but an idol by definition is worshiped.

You are so naive. If you go to South America, coming from anywhere, you might not accept or kneel and worship their saints/statues because you’re not familiar with them, but when you see Mary’s statues inside the church, it kind of neutralize your perception toward these unfamiliar saints/statues and the next thing you know is, you start lighting up candles and kneeling in front of them, even though they were unfamiliar to your preferences in worship.

You take all statues in every rcc churches today, rcc will go bankrupt tomorrow. They can’t survive without them. These statues are what make these followers follow rcc since the beginning. The more statues they produce, in every church, the more followers a church will have. As simple as feeding them what they want.

 

[Neb]

BTW, do you have any statuary in your house? any pictures? any "prized possessions" [veneration]?

I do have very expensive carbon and alloy mountain bikes at home but I don’t light candles and kneel in front of them to ask God for something.

 

[metis]

You are so naive.

I do believe statements like that say much more about you than it does about me. Statements like that do not come out of understanding or compassion or fairness, and isn't that what Jesus expects a Christian to be like?

If you go to South America, coming from anywhere, you might not accept or kneel and worship their saints/statues because you’re not familiar with them, but when you see Mary’s statues inside the church, it kind of neutralize your perception toward these unfamiliar saints/statues and the next thing you know is, you start lighting up candles and kneeling in front of them, even though they were unfamiliar to your preferences in worship.

I saw this last Sunday at a mass where I was visiting, and even though this is something that I personally don't do, if kneeling and venerating a statue of Mary, for example, helps the person to better pray to God and be a better person, that's not a problem, imo.

And, btw, can you actually read a person's mind when they pray?

You take all statues in every rcc churches today, rcc will go bankrupt tomorrow. They can’t survive without them.

Your anti-Catholic bigotry is simply appalling.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught me much the same as you have come to believe about the RCC, but when I started dating a Catholic woman and attending mass with her and then taking undergrad classes in theology, I began to realize how I had been misled and even lied to.

My parents were staunchly anti-Catholic, and my father told me when I was in high school that he would kick my "a**" if he ever caught me going to a mass. Imagine my parent's reaction when I decided to marry another woman who was and is a very devout Catholic.

But they changed-- I mean really changed-- as not only did they see the effect that the church had on my very compassionate and loving wife, but they later attended some masses with us when our children had special services like baptisms and confirmations. No, they didn't convert, but their tone changed 180 degrees.

Their bigotry ended with more experiences and knowledge about the church, and hopefully yours will also some day do the same. I am not Catholic, have no plans on converting, but the church does a lot for so many people, including moi at times. If you don't like it, don't go, but at least have some respect for those who do.

And one final thing to say to you about this, and that is I never hear Catholics badmouthing Protestants, including on the pulpit, and that's like a huge breath of fresh air compared to how I was brought up.

 

[Neb]

It's related to Jewish Law for one. Since Jews were being taught by God through Abraham and later Moses, having a graven image on the Ark and on Moses' staff is significant whether you want to recognize that or not.

"graven image" literally means "idols", i.e., the one in Exodus 20:3-4, and it does not relates to the cherubim with their wings stretched over the Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant, i.e., the one in Exodus 25:18-22.

If you were to look at 1st Temple artifacts, there were many carvings that have been found right in Jerusalem itself and, as a matter of fact, the most recent issue of BAR has a lengthy article on them.

Catholics simply do not worship statuary, so having a statue or using it as a reminder cannot logically be viewed as an "idol".

You are unresponsive. Do not change the subject. We are still talking about Exodus 20:3-4 and Exodus 25:18-22, right? You've brought this up, remember?

 

[Neb]

I do believe statements like that say much more about you than it does about me. Statements like that do not come out of understanding or compassion or fairness, and isn't that what Jesus expects a Christian to be like?
I saw this last Sunday at a mass where I was visiting, and even though this is something that I personally don't do, if kneeling and venerating a statue of Mary, for example, helps the person to better pray to God and be a better person, that's not a problem, imo.

And, btw, can you actually read a person's mind when they pray?

Your anti-Catholic bigotry is simply appalling.

Attacking a strawman. Are you looking for sympathy or you want the truth?