Are Catholics Christians?

[sojourner]

There is no vocation in separation from the world. That is a blatant misuse of the term. A vocation infers a profession in the world.


There were no female leaders of the early church. There were female evangelists (messengers of the gospel), possibly, although the text is unclear as to why that title was being given to the woman (was it because she was also the husband of one?). Yet why wouldn't there be such, given 50% of the population is female? One could hardly see women going around on their own, independently of men in those days, due to the many dangers that would befall them.

As for legalism in morality, the NT provides for the establishment of such "legalism" as you term it, although the bible never classifies morality as legalism. That is unique to you.

Rom 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


I never said it.


No biblical authority for "payment for prayers." Jesus said God alone rewards prayers.

Mat 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


You appear to treat spiritual authority of men over women as mysogyny. You appear to me to me to be steeped in political correctness without any working knowledge of the bible, which I suppose is what Catholicism has always been about since Rome separated itself from the rest of Christendom. Really there is little point in discussing this because you are unable to relate to what the bible teaches. I suggest you go and ask your priest to explain it to you.

Of course there is! There always has been, ever since Jesus told his disciples to pray in secret, and ever since he, himself, went to remote places to pray. Jesus called his disciples out of their worldly vocations to follow him.

Yes, females did lead churches. Junia, Philip’s daughters, euodia, Syntyche, and Phoebe.

We establish the law. We. People. Yet you claim that man-made laws aren’t to be followed. Sounds like double-speak on your part to me.

It’s more than just prayers, and you know it. Religious communities do acts of charity, they (in ancient times) copied texts, they provide spiritual support. The Burch calls them to do that, and the church takes care of them, since they don’t have work that pays a wage. You’re twisting things.

The “spiritual authority of men over women” is myisogyny. If you can’t see that, you’re part of the problem. You appear to not know me, or anything about me — or about the RCC, for that matter, because the RCC did not separate itself from the rest of humanity. That’s historically provable. My working knowledge of the Bible is fairly extensive through years of graduate study, and I’m not Catholic. AND, I am the presbyter. So, a seminary degree, an ordination, and standing in my denomination give me street cred in most circles.

 

[outlawState]

Yes, females did lead churches. Junia, Philip’s daughters, euodia, Syntyche, and Phoebe.

Pure imagination on your part. Not every apostolic reference to a woman is to a "leader." In those days, there was no hierarchy, except for the apostles themselves. Ordinary believers were as valuable as anyone else. A presbyter had to be the husband of one wife. That inferred he was male.

We establish the law. We. People. Yet you claim that man-made laws aren’t to be followed. Sounds like double-speak on your part to me.

Not every man-made law is of God, or approved by God.

It’s more than just prayers, and you know it. Religious communities do acts of charity, they (in ancient times) copied texts, they provide spiritual support. The Burch calls them to do that, and the church takes care of them, since they don’t have work that pays a wage. You’re twisting things.

I'll agree that in the early days there was a case for monasteries as quasi-universities, and repositories of books, but they did not function as educators to a wider population. They were too inbred and they did not use the native tongue, but Latin, so no-one else could read their books. They were part and parcel of the self-serving system that was Rome, which is why I said that the monasteries served the pretensions of Rome.

The “spiritual authority of men over women” is myisogyny. If you can’t see that, you’re part of the problem. You appear to not know me, or anything about me — or about the RCC, for that matter, because the RCC did not separate itself from the rest of humanity. That’s historically provable. My working knowledge of the Bible is fairly extensive through years of graduate study, and I’m not Catholic. AND, I am the presbyter. So, a seminary degree, an ordination, and standing in my denomination give me street cred in most circles.

The RCC did separate itself from the rest of humanity. It has excommunicated every other church down through the ages. One only needs to celebrate Easter on a different date to Rome to be excommunicated by it. That was the first purported ground of excommunication of another church. Is there anything in the bible about excommunicating people because of the date of easter?

Even by the 2nd century AD Rome was acting as antichrist.

I have a good knowledge of Romish ways. It is a cult IMO.

You are a woman who thinks that modern political correctness is of God. There is no point in arguing with you. I don't care what you call yourself. The sister site of this one is full of female clerics. I care nothing for them, and they have no biblical warrant of authority. They are based as you showed earlier, on febrile imagination and ancient gnosticism re-incarnated. For it was always the heretical sects that went in for women's equality. There is not an iota of biblical authority for female presbyters.

 

[sojourner]

Pure imagination on your part. Not every apostolic reference to a woman is to a "leader." In those days, there was no hierarchy, except for the apostles themselves. Ordinary believers were as valuable as anyone else. A presbyter had to be the husband of one wife. That inferred he was male.


Not every man-made law is of God, or approved by God.


I'll agree that in the early days there was a case for monasteries as quasi-universities, and repositories of books, but they did not function as educators to a wider population. They were too inbred and they did not use the native tongue, but Latin, so no-one else could read their books. They were part and parcel of the self-serving system that was Rome, which is why I said that the monasteries served the pretensions of Rome.


The RCC did separate itself from the rest of humanity. It has excommunicated every other church down through the ages. One only needs to celebrate Easter on a different date to Rome to be excommunicated by it. That was the first purported ground of excommunication of another church. Is there anything in the bible about excommunicating people because of the date of easter?

Even by the 2nd century AD Rome was acting as antichrist.

I have a good knowledge of Romish ways. It is a cult IMO.

You are a woman who thinks that modern political correctness is of God. There is no point in arguing with you. I don't care what you call yourself. The sister site of this one is full of female clerics. I care nothing for them, and they have no biblical warrant of authority. They are based as you showed earlier, on febrile imagination and ancient gnosticism re-incarnated. For it was always the heretical sects that went in for women's equality. There is not an iota of biblical authority for female presbyters.

Philip’s daughters were apostles and, thereby (as you just asserted), leaders with authority. If you really knew the church, you would know that there is no “ordinary” member. All ministries, whether episcopal, presbyterial, diaconal, or lay, are, at their core, baptismal ministries, to which every member is called.

If a law is of human origin, it is not of Divine origin.

Actually, they did. Religious houses were where the universities were begun. The monasteries did educate people, and they did so, in many cases, using the vernacular. In Britain and Ireland, even following the edict of Northumbria, there was much adherence to local custom, and not that of Rome.

In 1066, Rome and Constantinople excommunicated each other simultaneously, so the split was mutual. The Celtic Church was never quite reconciled to Roman authority, and all the Protestant bodies split from Rome. You’re history is quite revisionist.

Your opinion of the RCC is your opinion, but it’s not fact, and it’s not based in fact.

Wait! I’m a... what??!! (Not that there’s anything wrong with that). You keep opening your mouth and inserting whole shoe stores. You just keep shooting yourself in the foot. The ignorance of your posts is astounding and the toxic and violent misogyny they display is reprehensible. High time I made real good use of the “ignore” button. I hope you enjoy the sand in your ears and the blinders on your face.

 

[outlawState]

Philip’s daughters were apostles

Philips daughters who were virgins were given the specific gift of prophecy, but which was never said to have been exercised in the meeting of the congregation (i.e. in ekklesia).

and, thereby (as you just asserted), leaders with authority. If you really knew the church, you would know that there is no “ordinary” member. All ministries, whether episcopal, presbyterial, diaconal, or lay, are, at their core, baptismal ministries, to which every member is called.

You're making it up. The bible never says that they were "leaders with authority." Not every gift of God confers "leadership." In fact the very concept of "leadership" smacks of secular values, i.e. arrogating leadership to oneself. The church is led by example and by persons of worthiness, old enough not be led astray by conceit. It is not given over to virgins, whatever their gifts.

1Ti 3:6
"He" must not be a recent convert, or "he" may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

Where do you see the word woman in 1 Ti 3:1-3:7?

If a law is of human origin, it is not of Divine origin.

Not so. Human rulers or human authority is appointed by God, whether pagan or otherwise. So all laws are in some sense of God, but not of God where they are seen to oppose more fundamental laws of God. So every law has to be examined on a case by case basis. What we also know is that whole legal systems will arise and have arisen that are based largely on principles antithetic to God. These are the "beasts" of Revelation etc that are opposed to the gospel. So all true Christians have to tread carefully and use great wisdom in applying such law. Pagans will blindly follow every such law to their own perdition.

Actually, they did. Religious houses were where the universities were begun. The monasteries did educate people, and they did so, in many cases, using the vernacular. In Britain and Ireland, even following the edict of Northumbria, there was much adherence to local custom, and not that of Rome.

Celtic/Irish monasticism was notable for its permeability. That is to say per Wiki

"In permeable monasticism, people were able to move freely in and out of the monastic system at different points of life. Young boys and girls would enter the system to pursue Latin scholarship. Students would sometimes travel from faraway lands to enter the Irish monasteries. When these students became adults, they would leave the monastery to live out their lives. Eventually, these people would retire back to secure community provided by the monastery and stay until their death. However, some would stay within the monastery and become leaders. Since most of the clergy were Irish, native traditions were well-respected. Permeable monasticism popularised the use of vernacular and helped mesh the norms of secular and monastic element in Ireland, unlike other parts of Europe where monasteries were more isolated. Examples of these intertwining motifs can be seen in the hagiographies of St. Brigid and St. Columba"​

However it had its roots in Eqyptian monasticism. Egypt was a hot bed of gnosticism and wierd practices suited to the desert environs. It equipped the people little to withstand conquest by (a) Rome and (b) the Vikings. I read that by the 8th century, there was corruption everywhere and many monasteries were destroyed and pillaged by the Vikings as they had become associated with wealth, and one may infer, superstition and Romanism.

As I said before the problem with monasteries is that there is very little to stop someone more powerful just walking in and taking what they want, which is what happened all over the place. As schools they doubtless had some value.

In 1066, Rome and Constantinople excommunicated each other simultaneously, so the split was mutual. The Celtic Church was never quite reconciled to Roman authority, and all the Protestant bodies split from Rome. You’re history is quite revisionist.

In January 1521, Pope Leo X excommunicated Luther.
Hus and his adherents were excommunicated by Alexander V.
Jerome of Prague was excommunicated by the bishop of Kraków 1410.
Peter Waldo was excommunicated by Pope Lucius III during the synod held at Verona in 1184.
In 1382 Wycliffe's enemy William Courtenay, Archbishop of Canterbury, called an ecclesiastical assembly of notables at London. Of the 24 propositions attributed to Wycliffe without mentioning his name, ten were declared heretical and fourteen erroneous. He had also been all but excommunicated in 1377 by Pope Gregory XI.
Cyril in the First Council of Ephesus in 431 deposed Nestorius and declared him a heretic. Many of his supporters were likewise excommunciated.
St Columba was excommunicated in 562 by the synod of Teltown
Harold II, King of England, for perhaps politically motivated reasons by Pope Alexander II in order to justify the invasion and takeover of the kingdom by William the Conqueror in 1066
Pelagius was excommunicated 418.

Many were never excommunciated but merely put to death/sentenced to death. e.g. Servetus & many others. See People_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church.

Your opinion of the RCC is your opinion, but it’s not fact, and it’s not based in fact.

I think that it is you who do not know the facts.