Are all Atmans the same Atman (Brahman)?

[The Sum of Awe]

If we're all the same Atman wouldn't the only way that would work be if the last being in existence is the last life we are to live? The last life before we reach enlightenment? If so, we've (I've) got a LONG ways to go.

 

[SalixIncendium]

If we're all the same Atman wouldn't the only way that would work be if the last being in existence is the last life we are to live? The last life before we reach enlightenment? If so, we've (I've) got a LONG ways to go.

The Atman is already enlightened. It is the jiva that is unenlightened, as the jiva is ignorant of his/her true nature.

When an unenlightened jiva sees an enlightened person (jivanmukta), s/he says, "Look, that person is enlightened." They are perceiving them as such because the jiva is perceiving from vyavaharika. Jivanmukta don't perceive themselves as enlightened, as their perception is already in Paramartika. They are already experiencing their true nature in Absolute Reality (Brahman).

Think of this in terms of non-lucid dreaming versus lucid dreaming. If the dreamer is ignorant of the dream, their perception is only within the dream and that dream is their only reality. However, if one is experiencing a lucid dream in which they realize the dreamer is illusory and not their true nature, they have an entirely different perception of the dream itself, as they realize the waking state is the true reality and that the dream state is illusory.

And to answer the question in the title, yes. All Atmans are the same Atman, which is Brahman, though they appear as different Atmans. All waves in the ocean are the same ocean, only each wave appears as an individual wave.

 

[Veyl]

The Atman is already enlightened. It is the jiva that is unenlightened, as the jiva is ignorant of his/her true nature.

When an unenlightened jiva sees an enlightened person (jivanmukta), s/he says, "Look, that person is enlightened." They are perceiving them as such because the jiva is perceiving from vyavaharika. Jivanmukta don't perceive themselves as enlightened, as their perception is already in Paramartika. They are already experiencing their true nature in Absolute Reality (Brahman).

Think of this in terms of non-lucid dreaming versus lucid dreaming. If the dreamer is ignorant of the dream, their perception is only within the dream and that dream is their only reality. However, if one is experiencing a lucid dream in which they realize the dreamer is illusory and not their true nature, they have an entirely different perception of the dream itself, as they realize the waking state is the true reality and that the dream state is illusory.

And to answer the question in the title, yes. All Atmans are the same Atman, which is Brahman, though they appear as different Atmans. All waves in the ocean are the same ocean, only each wave appears as an individual wave.

This would suggest that Brahman does not actually permeate all, for it would not encompass the whole being of the jiva-atman then, no?

 

[SalixIncendium]

This would suggest that Brahman does not actually permeate all, for it would not encompass the whole being of the jiva-atman then, no?

In your dream, what is not encompassed by you?

If all is Brahman, what is there to permeate?

 

[Veyl]

In your dream, what is not encompassed by you?

If all is Brahman, what is there to permeate?

Presumably the subject in that scenario. If we can say it is, then we would have to say it is Brahman wholly then. The idea of annihilation or already-extant non-existence as part of that seems needless and counter to the point being made. There would still be finitude present in existence, unless one would wish to assert that the entity was illusory.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Presumably the subject in that scenario. If we can say it is, then we would have to say it is Brahman wholly then. The idea of annihilation or already-extant non-existence as part of that seems needless and counter to the point being made. There would still be finitude present in existence, unless one would wish to assert that the entity was illusory.

From vyavaharika, sure, Brahman can be perceived as a separate entity. From Paramartika, what finitude can there be?

 

[Veyl]

From vyavaharika, sure, Brahman can be perceived as a separate entity. From Paramartika, what finitude can there be?

I suppose its the difference between believing that one's perceptions can be flawed and believing that the fact that one is perceiving in the first place is an illusion. In the initial example given, for example, there wouldn't really be an individual "wave," so to speak as much as an entire ocean, anymore than picking any given spot of infinity would result in the space being chosen possessing a value less than infinity.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If we're all the same Atman wouldn't the only way that would work be if the last being in existence is the last life we are to live? The last life before we reach enlightenment? If so, we've (I've) got a LONG ways to go.

Same atman! All all the selves the same. If we go by Advaita Hinduism, non duality, there is only one, Brahman. It is the defect of perception that makes us see many.
How long does it take to get enlightened. With proper grounding, good knowledge, of history, science, etc., it may take just minutes.
But remember, non duality, Advaita, does not mean monistic theism.

 

[Joshua Pryce]

If we're all the same Atman wouldn't the only way that would work be if the last being in existence is the last life we are to live? The last life before we reach enlightenment? If so, we've (I've) got a LONG ways to go.

Eternity is a Christian concept in analogical examples. What i mean is to understand eternal thinking and living and mentally is a spiritual thing. Believing in one essence presents many problems. One being that technically and practically all life goes through different stages at different moments. Oneness is unity in timing, in deed and function.