Are all atheists facing Hell?

[Katzpur]

But my much deeper question, which most people never see, alas, is "why do you yourself care about what you believe, if you don't actually have a credible and explicable reason for believing it?"

When you get there, you'll know what I'm asking.

Why on earth are my beliefs of any concern to you whatsoever?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, that is part of my argument. If there is an indication that Gehenna / hell,, does not end, via other verses, then destruction does not necessarily mean a finality.

Doesn't the word ' forever ' mean forever such as the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' (Psalms 92:7)
Destroyed forever is annihilation and Not temporary.

Nothing thrown into Gehenna (garbage pit) could be restored. Can't glue ashes back together again.
Whereas biblical hell (grave) does come to a final end.
Biblical hell (Not Gehenna) is cast empty into that symbolic ' second death ' of Revelation 20:13-14.
Even the word cemetery means ' sleeping place ' Not burning place.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why on earth are my beliefs of any concern to you whatsoever?

Let me ask you a question -- do you think that people's beliefs inform their actions, or not? Do you think, sometimes, that if somebody believes something strongly enough, they might actually try, once in a while, to turn those beliefs into reality?

I'll give you an example: as someone who is part indigenous (my father was a Mohawk Indian), I live in a country which for decades executed a policy of trying to "take the Indian out of the child" by removing native children from their families (basically forever) and putting them in "residential schools." The Canadian government is busy trying to make amends for this extremely egregious action to this day, and it is going to cost enormous sums. But those who executed the policy did so for what they truly believed was right and approved of by God. They were, in fact, all devoted Christians.

I think you might find that there are places in the Mideast, and in many other parts of the world -- and even in the United States of America -- where governments (even democratically elected ones), and voter referenda, are quite happy to do great harm to other people -- based on nothing more than their own beliefs. For an example, how about California's Proposition 8 -- which essentially says "what I believe, others must live by."

And if you are not prepared to act on your beliefs, why would you call them beliefs?

The Prime Minister of Canada, who grew up in my culture, believes in the equality, worth and dignity of all people. Kim Jong-Un believes that people can be killed just because he's the boss and he gets to say so. If your beliefs were important to you, which country would you rather live in?

People's beliefs matter. And if they are beliefs without sound foundation, if they are beliefs that are irrational or foolish or hateful, I think we should all be aware of them and be concerned about them.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hell is not a permanent state...............

I agree that biblical hell is Not a permanent state, otherwise the dead Jesus could never have gotten out of hell.
As Acts 2:27 tells us that the day Jesus died that Jesus went hell before his God resurrected Jesus out of hell.
Not some religious-myth hell teaching taught as being Scripture, but biblical hell as just being the temporary grave.
Also, Satan never was in hell, and Satan will never be in hell. Satan ends up in ' second death ' of Revelation 21:8.

 

[Katzpur]

Let me ask you a question -- do you think that people's beliefs inform their actions, or not? Do you think, sometimes, that if somebody believes something strongly enough, they might actually try, once in a while, to turn those beliefs into reality?

I'm sorry but the way you have worded this question doesn't really make sense to me. I have a strong belief in God, but I am absolutely incapable of turning that belief into reality. It already is reality to me, and I couldn't possibly turn it into reality for you.

And if you are not prepared to act on your beliefs, why would you call them beliefs?

Oh, I am very, very much prepared to act on my beliefs. As a matter of fact, I do so every day.

People's beliefs matter. And if they are beliefs without sound foundation, if they are beliefs that are irrational or foolish or hateful, I think we should all be aware of them and be concerned about them.

Okay, but remember, my question to you was, "Why on earth are my beliefs of any concern to you whatsoever?" You may consider my beliefs to be irrational or foolish, but they certainly cannot be said to be hateful or harmful to anyone. If they are merely irrational or foolish to you, why are you concerned about them? (Obviously, if they were hateful, that would be a different matter.) You see, in my opinion, lack of belief in a Higher Power is both irrational and foolish, but since it is not inherently hateful, I say, "To each his own."

 

[Desert Snake]

This is as scary as the threat of not getting any presents at Christmas if you do not believe in Santa.

And it is also obvious why a sacred book like the Bible would contain anything of the sort. It would not stay sacred too long if it did not, probably.

Ciao

- viole

Hell isn't a threat, it's a belief. A actual atheist isn't going to believe in hell.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Okay, but remember, my question to you was, "Why on earth are my beliefs of any concern to you whatsoever?" You may consider my beliefs to be irrational or foolish, but they certainly cannot be said to be hateful or harmful to anyone. If they are merely irrational or foolish to you, why are you concerned about them? (Obviously, if they were hateful, that would be a different matter.) You see, in my opinion, lack of belief in a Higher Power is both irrational and foolish, but since it is not inherently hateful, I say, "To each his own."

Forgive me for butting in, but all religious belief should be of interest to secular people seeking a better world for humanity. Religion continues to be an extremely powerful and controlling drug; I don't deny it can have a positive effect and make life better for people who are suffering, but it can also undoubtedly have a negative effect. Abuse and cover ups are no strangers to religion, including the LDS movement. Like any other influential human organisation it is sensible to find out what the motivating beliefs behind it are. I am interested in what far right or far left political parties in Europe believe, not because I share their beliefs or think that what they believe is credible, but because I am interested in refuting/opposing them. I'm interested in keeping them in their box, likewise with religion. I'm not equating religion with extreme political parties btw, but I trust you see my point.

 

[Desert Snake]

Doesn't the word ' forever ' mean forever such as the wicked will be ' destroyed forever ' (Psalms 92:7)
Destroyed forever is annihilation and Not temporary.

Of course hell isn't temporary. You seem to be arguing apples and oranges here.
The time before judgement isn't the 'hell', that occurs after judgement.

Revelation 14:10-11

This very clearly infers a eternal hell, regardless of how you are interpreting the words.

 

[Katzpur]

Forgive me for butting in, but all religious belief should be of interest to secular people seeking a better world for humanity. Religion continues to be an extremely powerful and controlling drug; I don't deny it can have a positive effect and make life better for people who are suffering, but it can also undoubtedly have a negative effect. Abuse and cover ups are no strangers to religion, including the LDS movement. Like any other influential human organisation it is sensible to find out what the motivating beliefs behind it are. I am interested in what far right or far left political parties in Europe believe, not because I share their beliefs or think that what they believe is credible, but because I am interested in refuting/opposing them. I'm interested in keeping them in their box, likewise with religion. I'm not equating religion with extreme political parties btw, but I trust you see my point.

Boy, this thread has really headed off into left field, hasn't it? I started out by saying that I don't believe atheists are destined for Hell, and look where it led me.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I'm sorry but the way you have worded this question doesn't really make sense to me. I have a strong belief in God, but I am absolutely incapable of turning that belief into reality. It already is reality to me, and I couldn't possibly turn it into reality for you.

Oh, I am very, very much prepared to act on my beliefs. As a matter of fact, I do so every day.

Okay, but remember, my question to you was, "Why on earth are my beliefs of any concern to you whatsoever?" You may consider my beliefs to be irrational or foolish, but they certainly cannot be said to be hateful or harmful to anyone. If they are merely irrational or foolish to you, why are you concerned about them? (Obviously, if they were hateful, that would be a different matter.) You see, in my opinion, lack of belief in a Higher Power is both irrational and foolish, but since it is not inherently hateful, I say, "To each his own."

Well, since this is the anniversary of 9/11, I'd ask you to remember that people do act on their beliefs, each and every day. Proposition 8 in California sought to deny certain rights to people that many people "believed" should be deprived of them. And they won. The Puritans of Salem Massachusetts believed that some women (and a couple of men) were witches -- possessed magical powers -- and ought to be killed. And they killed them -- without, apparently even noticing that these alleged "magical powers" were simply incapable of providing these poor wretches any protection at all.

Our history, and our present, and very likely our future, are and will be all filled with examples of people acting on their beliefs.

Sometimes, these beliefs are benevolent, and do some real good. Sometimes, they are well-meaning, but do great harm. Missionaries, in an effort to convert other cultures and religions to their own beliefs, have on too many occasions destroyed those cultures. My belief system says that destroying whole peoples is NOT a good thing, and I think that I should act on that belief.

In my own country, Canada, churches raised lots and lots of money from their well-meaning congregations to fund a "Residential School System," dedicated to legally stealing native children away from their own families, and raising them with the important mission of "taking the Indian out of the child." Many, many died. Many by their own hand. Many turned to prostitution, alcohol and all manner of other social ills. Misery on a horrible scale was the direct consequence of these "benevolences."

I'm a gay man. There are many people around the world who believe it would be right to kill me. There are countries that will happily oblige, through their legal systems, sustained as they are by "belief," rather than knowledge.

So people, in their hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands and million have been, are being and will be killed, enslaved, brought to wrack and ruin -- because of beliefs. And yes, a few people might be helped. I put it to you, however, that the benevolent beliefs of some, who set up hospitals, or charities -- have throughout history provided considerably less in the general well-being than beliefs that other people have the wrong beliefs, or "should be more like us," have a great deal more harm.

Yes, I think taking an active interest the beliefs of others – especially when they are not backed by a solid foundation in reason or knowledge of human nature, or respect for the beliefs and rights of others – is pretty important.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Boy, this thread has really headed off into left field, hasn't it? I started out by saying that I don't believe atheists are destined for Hell, and look where it led me.

I wasn't trying to beat you up! I've said it before Katzpur, I like the idea of the LDS "layered" heaven where atheists get a shot at eternal life, but you still believe there is hell/annihilation for some though right? Besides the LDS movement is pretty "fluid" when it comes to doctrine, today's beliefs could quickly change with more "revelation" from your god. I'm not picking on your religion in particular, just making the point that humanity changes over time, depending on social/environmental/political circumstances. Religion is not immune from that, to claim otherwise flies in the face of history.
Trust me, I like to find out what religious or political groups believe, but more in the name of self preservation than an expectation that I might learn some amazing "truth" from them. As a man once said, know your enemy.

 

[Katzpur]

Our history, and our present, and very likely our future, are and will be all filled with examples of people acting on their beliefs.

Sometimes, these beliefs are benevolent, and do some real good. Sometimes, they are well-meaning, but do great harm. Missionaries, in an effort to convert other cultures and religions to their own beliefs, have on too many occasions destroyed those cultures. My belief system says that destroying whole peoples is NOT a good thing, and I think that I should act on that belief.

I couldn't agree more.

I'm a gay man.

And I am a straight woman about your age with two grown children (both straight). And I would like you to know that I am a strong supporter of LGBT rights. As a matter of fact, I do everything I possibly can to make sure the LGBT community has every civil right that the rest of us have.

 

[Katzpur]

I wasn't trying to beat you up! I've said it before Katzpur, I like the idea of the LDS "layered" heaven where atheists get a shot at eternal life, but you still believe there is hell/annihilation for some though right? Besides the LDS movement is pretty "fluid" when it comes to doctrine, today's beliefs could quickly change with more "revelation" from your god. I'm not picking on your religion in particular, just making the point that humanity changes over time, depending on social/environmental/political circumstances. Religion is not immune from that, to claim otherwise flies in the face of history.
Trust me, I like to find out what religious or political groups believe, but more in the name of self preservation than an expectation that I might learn some amazing "truth" from them. As a man once said, know your enemy.

Hello there, Burp. To answer your question, it is actually entirely possible that someone who lived his entire life as an atheist could end up in the highest "degree of glory" in our "layered heaven." As far as hell/annihilation goes, annihilation is simply not a part of our belief system at all. We believe in a temporary hell, from which one can be released prior to the final judgment. We believe that the only individuals who have ever lived who will end up permanently separated from God (in what we call "Outer Darkness") are those who, in essence, deny God the Father and Jesus Christ after having a clear knowledge and understanding of their existence. Keep in mind that this knowledge may not come until the period of time when, after death, the immortal spirit awaits the resurrection of the body as an immortal being. While I obviously can't say how many people this will involve, it could probably be described as "miniscule."

I realize most of the terminology and probably many of the concepts I'm mentioning may be entirely foreign to you. But unless I were to write a pretty length post, it would be difficult for me to explain our theology more clearly. If you're interested, though, I did explain the whole thing in some detail a number of years ago. My posts #1, #3 and #4 in this thread in the LDS DIR, contain that information. (It looks like, when the RF software conversion took place last year, the formatting got kind of messed up, but I think it's still legible.)

Incidentally, the "fluidity" you're speaking of is not so much with respect to "doctrine" (and this stuff is "doctrine") but with policy. Policy changes happen all the time. Changes in doctrine don't.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I couldn't agree more.

And I am a straight woman about your age with two grown children (both straight). And I would like you to know that I am a strong supporter of LGBT rights. As a matter of fact, I do everything I possibly can to make sure the LGBT community has every civil right that the rest of us have.

And I would say that you do that -- at least in part (possibly large part) -- as a consequence of your beliefs.

Please try to understand that I have at no time said the "beliefs are wrong." What I have said is that humans act, mostly, according to their beliefs. And if their beliefs are not supported by reasonable argument, and if they demand action, then those beliefs can lead to good or bad outcomes.

I happen to believe (you may disagree), that unwarranted beliefs have led to many more bad outcomes than good, throughout our history. And I think that is unlikely to change.

 

[Katzpur]

And I would say that you do that -- at least in part (possibly large part) -- as a consequence of your beliefs.

Please try to understand that I have at no time said the "beliefs are wrong." What I have said is that humans act, mostly, according to their beliefs. And if their beliefs are not supported by reasonable argument, and if they demand action, then those beliefs can lead to good or bad outcomes.

I happen to believe (you may disagree), that unwarranted beliefs have led to many more bad outcomes than good, throughout our history. And I think that is unlikely to change.

Yeah, but what is "reasonable" or "warranted" and what isn't is kind of a subjective thing, wouldn't you agree? I personally believe that any belief that may cause someone to do harm to another is wrong and dangerous. Period. On the other hand, I can be tolerant of even the most outlandish (IMO) beliefs as long as no one is hurt by them.

 

[Thief]

Yeah, but what is "reasonable" or "warranted" and what isn't is kind of a subjective thing, wouldn't you agree? I personally believe that any belief that may cause someone to do harm to another is wrong and dangerous. Period. On the other hand, I can be tolerant of even the most outlandish (IMO) beliefs as long as no one is hurt by them.

but angels carry swords.....

at least it seems that way
all the statues and paintings that have been put on display over several centuries

I can't take that away

think your safe in heaven?

 

[Muffled]

Some churches have inferred otherwise, however, the Bible does not mince it's words,

John 3:36
& other verses,
All atheists might be facing Hell.

I believe it is a certainty.

 

[Muffled]

Good thing there is no hell to face.

I believe ignoring the facts won't make it go away.

 

[Muffled]

Only the Christian ones that believe the Bible.
...wait...
No.

I believe that is incorrect. Norse myth says evil people are buried in Hel and god people go to the Elysian fields.

 

[Deidre]

Some churches have inferred otherwise, however, the Bible does not mince it's words,

John 3:36
& other verses,
All atheists might be facing Hell.

We don't know these answers. The Bible says a lot of things, I think that we can't presume to understand a god of mercy, should he decide to welcome everyone into heaven. You never know. Many atheists I know are far kinder than many Christians I know, so...I don't think your label will earn you a spot in heaven, rather the condition of our hearts will.