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Are Agnostics Generally "Closer to God" than Either Atheists or Theists?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Two Rabbis argued late into the night about the existence of God, and, using strong arguments from the scriptures, ended up indisputably disproving His existence. The next day, one Rabbi was surprised to see the other walking into the shul for morning services.

"I thought we had agreed there was no God," he said.

"Yes, what does that have to do with it?" replied the other.

Is there a sense or way in which agnostics are generally or usually "closer to god" than either atheists or theists? If so, what is that sense or way?


It is an assumption -- especially in the West, I think -- that having the right, proper, or true beliefs about god brings you in some sense or way "closer to god".

So, for instance, some theists dedicate years to studying and cultivating what they consider right, proper, or true beliefs about god in the anticipation that doing so will deepen and enrich their religiosity or spirituality, and thus bring them closer to god. But even many theists who do not put tremendous effort into cultivating true beliefs, tend to assume that true beliefs will bring them closer to god than false beliefs.

But is that assumption warranted? Is it really the case that true beliefs are generally or usually effective or even efficacious in bringing us closer to god?

I would submit that the assumption can be legitimately doubted. Moreover, I think it is even -- not merely possible -- but actually probable that both false and true beliefs can usually -- but perhaps not always -- hinder or prevent one from becoming closer to god in a certain, specific way.

Of course, the key here is to recognize that the issue crucially depends on what one means by "closer to god".

If one means "closer to god" in an everyday, normal, non-mystical sense, then perhaps one does become closer to god via belief -- and closer via true beliefs than via false beliefs. Moreover, there may be more than one way in which one can potentially become closer to go in a normal, non-mystical sense.

For instance, one might be convince that ones belief in god as X is true. The firmness of ones conviction could then translate directly into an emotional feeling of closeness, and in that sense, ones belief might bring one closer to god.

Or, it could be that adopting certain moral beliefs and acting on them might in some sense bring you closer to god. We might call this "righteousness" in the sense of "being in the right relationship to deity".

But however ones beliefs might bring you closer to god in normal, everyday ways is not at issue here.

What is at issue -- what I wish to discuss -- is whether or not beliefs are effective in bringing about the mystical experience -- which is so often identified as an experience of god.

The mystical experience is here defined as the kind of experiencing that comes about when normal, everyday consciousness (i.e. subject/object perception) abruptly ends while some form of experiencing continues.

In this context, the notion of "becoming closer to god" refers to having that sort of mystical experience.

I have hinted at my position on this, but I will reserve a fuller disclosure of it for later on in this thread.

Comments? Observations? Rants? Irrelevant Digressions? Angst Induced Confessions of Spiritual Yearning?
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Mystical experience is about experience, not beliefs; though your beliefs may affect how you interpret the experience. Belief alone won't bring you there. Belief is intellectual, not mystical imo.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Two Rabbis argued late into the night about the existence of God, and, using strong arguments from the scriptures, ended up indisputably disproving His existence. The next day, one Rabbi was surprised to see the other walking into the shul for morning services.

"I thought we had agreed there was no God," he said.

"Yes, what does that have to do with it?" replied the other.

Is there a sense or way in which agnostics are generally or usually "closer to god" than either atheists or theists? If so, what is that sense or way?


It is an assumption -- especially in the West, I think -- that having the right, proper, or true beliefs about god brings you in some sense or way "closer to god".

So, for instance, some theists dedicate years to studying and cultivating what they consider right, proper, or true beliefs about god in the anticipation that doing so will deepen and enrich their religiosity or spirituality, and thus bring them closer to god. But even many theists who do not put tremendous effort into cultivating true beliefs, tend to assume that true beliefs will bring them closer to god than false beliefs.

But is that assumption warranted? Is it really the case that true beliefs are generally or usually effective or even efficacious in bringing us closer to god?

I would submit that the assumption can be legitimately doubted. Moreover, I think it is even -- not merely possible -- but actually probable that both false and true beliefs can usually -- but perhaps not always -- hinder or prevent one from becoming closer to god in a certain, specific way.

Of course, the key here is to recognize that the issue crucially depends on what one means by "closer to god".

If one means "closer to god" in an everyday, normal, non-mystical sense, then perhaps one does become closer to god via belief -- and closer via true beliefs than via false beliefs. Moreover, there may be more than one way in which one can potentially become closer to go in a normal, non-mystical sense.

For instance, one might be convince that ones belief in god as X is true. The firmness of ones conviction could then translate directly into an emotional feeling of closeness, and in that sense, ones belief might bring one closer to god.

Or, it could be that adopting certain moral beliefs and acting on them might in some sense bring you closer to god. We might call this "righteousness" in the sense of "being in the right relationship to deity".

But however ones beliefs might bring you closer to god in normal, everyday ways is not at issue here.

What is at issue -- what I wish to discuss -- is whether or not beliefs are effective in bringing about the mystical experience -- which is so often identified as an experience of god.

The mystical experience is here defined as the kind of experiencing that comes about when normal, everyday consciousness (i.e. subject/object perception) abruptly ends while some form of experiencing continues.

In this context, the notion of "becoming closer to god" refers to having that sort of mystical experience.

I have hinted at my position on this, but I will reserve a fuller disclosure of it for later on in this thread.

Comments? Observations? Rants? Irrelevant Digressions? Angst Induced Confessions of Spiritual Yearning?


I want to come back and read this more but my thought is theist and atheist (black/white here) know for sure their positions. Theists by faith and experience and atheists observation and experience (connecting the dots if you will).

In both cases its pretty much assumption but if proven false one way or another, I think theist would be more surprised than atheists. That said, in a position "we dont know; we cant prove either way" is safer because is no god, he lost nothing. If there is, he's innocent of ignorance.

I kinda wish I was an agnostic than Id probably be a deist as the closest to theist I could get. If Im wrong, Id be ignorantly shocked. If theist were wrong, they may have a nervous breakdown.

So its good for agnoistics all around.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So, for instance, some theists dedicate years to studying and cultivating what they consider right, proper, or true beliefs about god in the anticipation that doing so will deepen and enrich their religiosity or spirituality, and thus bring them closer to god.

My Inspiration was described in scripture
and without scripture that Image would have been greatly reduced

however.....

it was He who said ....search the scripture if you think will find God
(I paraphrase for this)

He was being sarcastic
I suspect He was targeting people that look down their noses
as others do not recite with skill

it's not about recital
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
What is at issue -- what I wish to discuss -- is whether or not beliefs are effective in bringing about the mystical experience -- which is so often identified as an experience of god.
The mystic experience is, I think (or, I believe--so sue me!:p) is more likely if one engages in practices that make it more likely...practices such as meditation, drumming, chanting, vision questing, etc.

But, some who never engage in those practices succeed in having the experience, while others practice but never/rarely succeed.

But I'm not sure if beliefs have much to do with it, except for making sense of the experience afterward...
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Hmm.
But is that assumption warranted? Is it really the case that true beliefs are generally or usually effective or even efficacious in bringing us closer to god?

Yes, if the conviction of that belief, say perform life changing events that rarely brings good fortune where to happen, they'd confirm their belief by self fulling prophecy and confirmation bias. Its not wrong in and of itself. The culture and hyper reigious-language hides the core experience of religion that Can be shared by All people if they drop their preconseptions of the experience but one they find for themselves.

What is at issue -- what I wish to discuss -- is whether or not beliefs are effective in bringing about the mystical experience -- which is so often identified as an experience of god.

Yes. Beliefs/convictions on what one considers facts without evidence helps the believer fine a point and purpose for what he or she does and how their situation ans external and internal influences help them interpret with faith that that X experience came from god; soothing feeling. Keeps one sane.

Facts, they say, doesnt bring one to god because once you have facts it discritics how they personally define god could be different than how they saw him (or her). A, whats it called, a comfort zone. Beliefs act as, um forgot the name, fake medical pills. The belief is real. Its just not warranted based on facts directly related to the event. So, instead of "I pray to get that job raise" and ten days later they attribute it to god for getting one, the fact is they put in a request for a raise, their boss looked it over, and probably surprised the believer to where the believer doesnt see it as his doing (cause he feels inherited sin; cant do good) so he attributes it to god.

Neurotheology may be something you want to look up. There is a lot of things that contribute to belief in god and mystical experiences. Beliefs Do bring one closer to god. Its based on attribution, bias, and perpsective, not all facts.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The mystic experience is, I think (or, I believe--so sue me!:p) is more likely if one engages in practices that make it more likely...practices such as meditation, drumming, chanting, vision questing, etc.

But, some who never engage in those practices succeed in having the experience, while others practice but never/rarely succeed.

I agree. It's interesting, isn't it, that thousands of years have gone by and we've found no sure fire way to have a mystical experience -- unless drugs can be considered the precise equivalent of non-drug induced experiences.

But I'm not sure if beliefs have much to do with it, except for making sense of the experience afterward...

Sure? I'm not sure either, but for various reasons, I have some very strong suspicions that beliefs can -- and often do -- hinder or prevent the experience from coming about. It seems to me that the more firmly held they are, the more they can hinder or prevent. Of course, I am not talking here about a belief that, "Meditation might be a good technique to try", nor a belief, "Toyota makes the best cars", nor, "Columbus came to America in 1492". Those kinds of beliefs do not seem -- so far as I know -- to have much to do with it.

What I am mainly talking about are firmly held beliefs such as "God is X".
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I see the agnostic position as necessary rejecting any god. Because the agnostic can't say "I believe there is a god," the converse has to be the case: I can't believe there is a god. So in light of this I don't see an agnostic affirming anything about god, good, bad, or otherwise.

.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Is anyone closer to God even though they believe in God?

Isn't it kind of delusional to think that you have a relationship with something or someone just because you believe in it?

Relationships are usually a two way road.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
What is at issue -- what I wish to discuss -- is whether or not beliefs are effective in bringing about the mystical experience -- which is so often identified as an experience of god.

My answer is no. Mere belief without effort is almost entirely useless. In my own case, I considered as totally irrelevant the question of God until I had a couple of experiences which were like a light going on in a dark room. The internet is full of web sites about atheists and mysticism. Here's one I like A Nonbeliever Tries To Make Sense Of The Visions She Had As A Teen
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I see the agnostic position as necessary rejecting any god. Because the agnostic can't say "I believe there is a god," the converse has to be the case: I can't believe there is a god. So in light of this I don't see an agnostic affirming anything about god, good, bad, or otherwise.

.
Agnostic is the rejection of claims to knowledge, not claims to belief. They could either believe, disbelieve, or be neutral (not an 'this is a yes or no question' false dichotomy pusher.)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
One person asked, "Is your glass half full or half empty". The answer was "I'm just glad I have a glass". :)

I find it hard to say "I have a closer relationship than you". How in the world can one measure it?

What I can say is that when I needed wisdom in rearing my children, He told me how to deal with it. When I needed direction, He told me where to go. When I needed food, He supplied. et al.

Suffice to say that I am happy to have a relationship and hope you will too.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Two Rabbis argued late into the night about the existence of God, and, using strong arguments from the scriptures, ended up indisputably disproving His existence. The next day, one Rabbi was surprised to see the other walking into the shul for morning services.

"I thought we had agreed there was no God," he said.

"Yes, what does that have to do with it?" replied the other.

Is there a sense or way in which agnostics are generally or usually "closer to god" than either atheists or theists? If so, what is that sense or way?


It is an assumption -- especially in the West, I think -- that having the right, proper, or true beliefs about god brings you in some sense or way "closer to god".

So, for instance, some theists dedicate years to studying and cultivating what they consider right, proper, or true beliefs about god in the anticipation that doing so will deepen and enrich their religiosity or spirituality, and thus bring them closer to god. But even many theists who do not put tremendous effort into cultivating true beliefs, tend to assume that true beliefs will bring them closer to god than false beliefs.

But is that assumption warranted? Is it really the case that true beliefs are generally or usually effective or even efficacious in bringing us closer to god?

I would submit that the assumption can be legitimately doubted. Moreover, I think it is even -- not merely possible -- but actually probable that both false and true beliefs can usually -- but perhaps not always -- hinder or prevent one from becoming closer to god in a certain, specific way.

Of course, the key here is to recognize that the issue crucially depends on what one means by "closer to god".

If one means "closer to god" in an everyday, normal, non-mystical sense, then perhaps one does become closer to god via belief -- and closer via true beliefs than via false beliefs. Moreover, there may be more than one way in which one can potentially become closer to go in a normal, non-mystical sense.

For instance, one might be convince that ones belief in god as X is true. The firmness of ones conviction could then translate directly into an emotional feeling of closeness, and in that sense, ones belief might bring one closer to god.

Or, it could be that adopting certain moral beliefs and acting on them might in some sense bring you closer to god. We might call this "righteousness" in the sense of "being in the right relationship to deity".

But however ones beliefs might bring you closer to god in normal, everyday ways is not at issue here.

What is at issue -- what I wish to discuss -- is whether or not beliefs are effective in bringing about the mystical experience -- which is so often identified as an experience of god.

The mystical experience is here defined as the kind of experiencing that comes about when normal, everyday consciousness (i.e. subject/object perception) abruptly ends while some form of experiencing continues.

In this context, the notion of "becoming closer to god" refers to having that sort of mystical experience.

I have hinted at my position on this, but I will reserve a fuller disclosure of it for later on in this thread.

Comments? Observations? Rants? Irrelevant Digressions? Angst Induced Confessions of Spiritual Yearning?

Speaking as being mostly agnostic with regards any Creator, but with no belief as to the realism reflected by religious beliefs, I suspect one could be closer to any Creator if one acted as I believe one should, that is in having respect for all life, including humans, such as to treat them as one would want to be treated - with our attitude to non-human life just being as compassionate as makes sense. We are simply in a position of power over them by default, and should take responsibility for this. Hence, the absence of any devotion to any divine figure bothers me not at all. I believe behaving so, as outlined, might get one closer to any God although as a by-product of a fundamental belief, which to me just makes more sense than most others. That is, if we truly want to survive as a species. Praying and all the rest is not going to affect or achieve this. :oops:
 
Last edited:

Tumah

Veteran Member
Mystical experience is about experience, not beliefs; though your beliefs may affect how you interpret the experience. Belief alone won't bring you there. Belief is intellectual, not mystical imo.
That is assuming that all mystical experiences are essentially the same. The alternative is that beliefs will determine the form that the mystical experience will take.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I see the agnostic position as necessary rejecting any god. Because the agnostic can't say "I believe there is a god," the converse has to be the case: I can't believe there is a god. So in light of this I don't see an agnostic affirming anything about god, good, bad, or otherwise..

Interesting, but how is that relevant to the question of whether or not beliefs are effective in bringing about mystical experiences?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Is anyone closer to God even though they believe in God?

Isn't it kind of delusional to think that you have a relationship with something or someone just because you believe in it?

Relationships are usually a two way road.


I think what you say is a good and true point. As you say, whether or not god exists is trivial, for how could that affect my belief that I am in relationship to one?

On the other hand, a separate question is whether or not beliefs are effective in bringing about a mystical experience of oneness with god?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Agnostic is the rejection of claims to knowledge, not claims to belief. They could either believe, disbelieve, or be neutral (not an 'this is a yes or no question' false dichotomy pusher.)

Yes, that's one use of the term "agnostic", DA. I quite agree with you there. However, I think I've made it clear enough in my op that I'm using the term to mean "neutral on the question of belief", and I'm also a staunch and insufferable believer in the admittedly alarming notion that the meaning of words is ultimately arbitrary. Hence, I go forth with a clean conscience, despite having once again murdered the English language. :D
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
That is assuming that all mystical experiences are essentially the same. The alternative is that beliefs will determine the form that the mystical experience will take.

Good point! However, I would see it as a separate question whether the beliefs helped or hindered bringing about the experience?

By accounts, at least some mystical experiences are "pure" in the sense that any interpretation of the event is impossible because symbolic thought has ceased to function. I call these "pure" experiences "mystical". Of course, following the event -- either immediately following it or later on following it -- there might be some degree or another of symbolic analysis or interpretation of it that ultimately results in beliefs.

When beliefs in some way determine the form that the mystical experience takes, I usually term those "religious" experiences so as to distinguish them from the "pure" or mystical experiences during which symbolic thought is impossible.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
Based on my understanding, mystical experiences are generally spontaneous and have little to do with one's preconceptions of god. I think preconceived notions based dogmatic religious beliefs could more likely be a hindrance than a help in the chances of having such an experience, as such notions tend to close one's mind, and possibly the Self, to whatever leads to this experience. I believe an open mind is more conducive to the likelihood of a mystical experience.

So to answer your question in the OP, I think an agnostic is more likely to have such an experience to become "closer to god" than a theist or atheist.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
As an Agnostic who has discussed god with other Agnostic theists, the belief in god that requires anything from us is not common. The gods Agnostics tend to believe in are typically detached. There probably are some Agnostics that believe in a prayer based god but I think that's unusual. In any case an Agnostic can only be closer to god if they do what god wants. If the god is detached no one is going to be closer. If the god comes from one of the many religions somebody in that religion will be closer. No I don't believe Agnostic's can be closer to god than anyone else.
 
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