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ARCHEOLOGY and THE BIBLE

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The Passover is a national call for Israelites to come to Jerusalem to offering sacrifices to God. Bethlehem was the place where they brought and basically held all the lambs that were going to be offered as a sacrifice. It was the custom that still was being exercised as Mary, Joseph, Jesus and the caravan that they went with went just 20 years before.

Therefore, 100,000 is a conservative estimate.

Your estimator would be correct if there was no Passover.

I think it's quite funny how you apparantly think that whoever did these studies, isn't aware of passover rituals and festivities.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
What?!

Excerpt from Josephus' Bellum Judaicum, summary by Michael McGoodwin:
"The Idumaeans attempt to surrender. The last walls [of Jerusalem] are taken, more slaughter. Josephus estimates that 97,000 prisoners were taken in the war, and that 1,100,000 perished during the siege (Tacitus estimates that there were 600,000 under siege). "

Josephus (Flavius) Jewish War Summary

Has it ever occured to you that they might have been mistaken about that?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think it's quite funny how you apparantly think that whoever did these studies, isn't aware of passover rituals and festivities.
Yes... it does give the position of the study a lack of authority. You would think he would dig deeper! Great observation! :D
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I wish they were! :)
They do their homework. Don't you mean you that you wish it was the other way around? If one studies the Bible properly, instead of relying on apologists that the to make excuses for the Bible, one would find which parts hold up and which parts fall flat.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Separately, no....not revealing.

But cumulatively? As they pile up? Then, they are.

Circumstantial evidences become more powerful and can be conclusive, when there's many of them to reinforce each other!

They become CORROBORATIVE evidences!
Corroborating evidence of what, exactly? No one disputes that the Bible contains historically-correct facts. But the inclusion of even all of those facts does not prove the Bible to be inerrant or non-mythic.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The main function of the Bible is to try and show that God caused all, and yet we simply cannot objectively verify any of that
I disagree. The main function of the Bible is to provide a repository for the myths, poems, and narratives that seek to make meaning of the human condition and our relationship to creation through a theological perspective.

That meaning-making requires no objective verification of factual content, because the meaning isn’t derived from the facts, themselves, but rather from the lessons the literature imparts.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes... it does give the position of the study a lack of authority. You would think he would dig deeper! Great observation! :D

So you're just assuming this....
You don't actually know, because as you previously said in this thread, you haven't actually looked into it at all!
You didn't read these studies. You aren't even interested in them.


Yet, you pretend to know what they did and didn't take into account.

ps: the idea that experts concerning this subject (ie ancient cultures and their population sizes) aren't aware of passover etc, is beyond retarded.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I disagree. The main function of the Bible is to provide a repository for the myths, poems, and narratives that seek to make meaning of the human condition and our relationship to creation through a theological perspective.

That meaning-making requires no objective verification of factual content, because the meaning isn’t derived from the facts, themselves, but rather from the lessons the literature imparts.

So really, the bible is just "the social wisdom" and ideas of how humans are and conduct themselves, of ~2500 year old sheep herders?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I disagree. The main function of the Bible is to provide a repository for the myths, poems, and narratives that seek to make meaning of the human condition and our relationship to creation through a theological perspective.

That meaning-making requires no objective verification of factual content, because the meaning isn’t derived from the facts, themselves, but rather from the lessons the literature imparts.
That doesn't differ from what I wrote but is more of an elaboration. But we gotta remember that the central character is God within the scriptures, real or imagined.

Essentially, all narratives eventually lead to the belief in God and what that entails for us as humans.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So you're just assuming this....
You don't actually know, because as you previously said in this thread, you haven't actually looked into it at all!
You didn't read these studies. You aren't even interested in them.


Yet, you pretend to know what they did and didn't take into account.

ps: the idea that experts concerning this subject (ie ancient cultures and their population sizes) aren't aware of passover etc, is beyond retarded.
Not assuming at all...

Why should I read "the rest of the story" if, from the inception, he estimates that there were only 25,000 when it is common knowledge that a Passover was taking place?

Would you read the rest of a study if the title said "Dinosaurs are only 6,000 year old"? Of COURSE you wouldn't. You wouldn't be interested in them.

Likewise, I also have no need to waste time.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Has it ever occured to you that they might have been mistaken about that?
He was a contemporary of those times. His descriptions of events, if inaccurate, would have been revealed as false by other contemporaries.
He would have been discredited.

They weren't; he wasn't.

Not among his contemporaries, who knew and were more aware of events going on in their day, than historians living now.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Not assuming at all...

Why should I read "the rest of the story" if, from the inception, he estimates that there were only 25,000 when it is common knowledge that a Passover was taking place?

Would you read the rest of a study if the title said "Dinosaurs are only 6,000 year old"? Of COURSE you wouldn't. You wouldn't be interested in them.

Likewise, I also have no need to waste time.

Jerusalem was a small, impoverished whistlestop on the trade routes between Egypt and Mesoptamia.

Once they had experienced Babylon in their exile everything changed. They wanted laws and rituals, an identity and foundational myths like the Babylonians had.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Jerusalem was a small, impoverished whistlestop on the trade routes between Egypt and Mesoptamia.

Once they had experienced Babylon in their exile everything changed. They wanted laws and rituals, an identity and foundational myths like the Babylonians had.
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel had King Herod's refurbished, enlarged Temple which was a focal point of Israel's worship and sacrifices... hardly an "impoverished whistlestop". It also was the seat of Government both for King Herod as the Roman ruler as well as the Sanhedrin, the religious rulers which had their own police.

So... no unless you classify Washington D.C. as small
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Jerusalem had King Herod's refurbished, enlarged Temple which was a focal point of Israel's worship and sacrifices... hardly an "impoverished whistlestop". It also was the seat of Government both for King Herod as the Roman ruler as well as the Sanhedrin, the religious rulers which had their own police.

So... no

The facts say something else.

Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City ...
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/jerusalem/ancient...
Jan 11, 2019 · Overall, however, the area comprises only about 11–12 acres. Geva estimates the population of the city during this period at between 500 and 700 “at most.” (Previously other prominent scholars had estimated Jerusalem’s population in this period as 880–1,100, 1,000, 2,500, 3,000; still this is hardly what we would consider a metropolis.)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The facts say something else.

Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City ...
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/jerusalem/ancient...
Jan 11, 2019 · Overall, however, the area comprises only about 11–12 acres. Geva estimates the population of the city during this period at between 500 and 700 “at most.” (Previously other prominent scholars had estimated Jerusalem’s population in this period as 880–1,100, 1,000, 2,500, 3,000; still this is hardly what we would consider a metropolis.)

We already covered this.

It is often asked "How many lived in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus?" But there is really no reliable sources that would indicate any population figures during the time of Jesus. The main sources available estimate a population of around 80,000 to 100,000 citizens. But hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Diaspora which numbered around 4,000,000 visited Jerusalem for the Passover and other festivals yearly with an estimated 3,000,000 people, both Jews and Gentiles, visiting Jerusalem during the Passover when the Lamb of God was lifted on a Roman cross.

https://www.bible-history.com/backd2/jerusalem.html

The city wasn't limited to just what was in Acres no more than New York is limited to the Bronx.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We already covered this.

It is often asked "How many lived in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus?" But there is really no reliable sources that would indicate any population figures during the time of Jesus. The main sources available estimate a population of around 80,000 to 100,000 citizens. But hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Diaspora which numbered around 4,000,000 visited Jerusalem for the Passover and other festivals yearly with an estimated 3,000,000 people, both Jews and Gentiles, visiting Jerusalem during the Passover when the Lamb of God was lifted on a Roman cross.

https://www.bible-history.com/backd2/jerusalem.html

The city wasn't limited to just what was in Acres no more than New York is limited to the Bronx.
You should not use apologist sources. Those are far from reliable. As for Josepheus it was well known that his numbers were often exaggerated:

How Reliable is Josephus work

"
  • Josephus commonly exaggerated, embellished, and overstated his writings. Some historians point to the fact that he was overstating for dramatic purposes. For example, he says that so much blood was shed in Jerusalem that streams of gore extinguished the fires that burned. Although this is exaggerated, his point is clear!

  • Josephus is not consistent with numbers. For example, he says Mount Tabor is "thirty stadia" (18,200 feet), when in reality the mountain is only 1,920 feet. Exaggeration of numbers is very common to authors of that era."
He was thought to be good with geography and architecture. Numbers not so much.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You should not use apologist sources. Those are far from reliable. As for Josepheus it was well known that his numbers were often exaggerated:

How Reliable is Josephus work

"
  • Josephus commonly exaggerated, embellished, and overstated his writings. Some historians point to the fact that he was overstating for dramatic purposes. For example, he says that so much blood was shed in Jerusalem that streams of gore extinguished the fires that burned. Although this is exaggerated, his point is clear!

  • Josephus is not consistent with numbers. For example, he says Mount Tabor is "thirty stadia" (18,200 feet), when in reality the mountain is only 1,920 feet. Exaggeration of numbers is very common to authors of that era."
He was thought to be good with geography and architecture. Numbers not so much.
Yes, I should use sources of those who are anti-Christian who have their agendas. :D forget the reality that what the apologist said is true.

An "Attack the source" fallacy.
 
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