ARCHEOLOGY and THE BIBLE

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, I should use sources of those who are anti-Christian who have their agendas. forget the reality that what the apologist said is true.

An "Attack the source" fallacy.

No, you should use sources that are not dishonest. I have run into the claim that Josephus was inaccurate with his numbers elsewhere. That you have to use dishonest sources hurts your argument.

 

[sojourner]

So really, the bible is just "the social wisdom" and ideas of how humans are and conduct themselves, of ~2500 year old sheep herders?

That's not what I said.

 

[sojourner]

That doesn't differ from what I wrote but is more of an elaboration. But we gotta remember that the central character is God within the scriptures, real or imagined.

Essentially, all narratives eventually lead to the belief in God and what that entails for us as humans.

Well... all narratives assume a belief in God. And yes, I did say "from a theological perspective," so that puts God in the center by definition.

 

[sooda]

We already covered this.

It is often asked "How many lived in Jerusalem during the time of Jesus?" But there is really no reliable sources that would indicate any population figures during the time of Jesus. The main sources available estimate a population of around 80,000 to 100,000 citizens. But hundreds of thousands of Jews from the Diaspora which numbered around 4,000,000 visited Jerusalem for the Passover and other festivals yearly with an estimated 3,000,000 people, both Jews and Gentiles, visiting Jerusalem during the Passover when the Lamb of God was lifted on a Roman cross.

https://www.bible-history.com/backd2/jerusalem.html

The city wasn't limited to just what was in Acres no more than New York is limited to the Bronx.

Have you even seen Jerusalem?

 

[Kenny]

Have you even seen Jerusalem?

Have you seen the first Homo Sapiens?

 

[sooda]

Have you seen the first Homo Sapiens?

It doesn't matter. Go ahead and believe Jerusalem was a big city.

 

[Kenny]

It doesn't matter. Go ahead and believe Jerusalem was a big city.

Thank you.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Not assuming at all...

Why should I read "the rest of the story" if, from the inception, he estimates that there were only 25,000 when it is common knowledge that a Passover was taking place?

I rest my case.​

Would you read the rest of a study if the title said "Dinosaurs are only 6,000 year old"? Of COURSE you wouldn't. You wouldn't be interested in them.

Likewise, I also have no need to waste time.

The difference being, off course, that no study exists with such a title.
If such a study would actually be published through appropriate scientific channels, I sure as hell would read it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

He was a contemporary of those times.

So? Contemporaries are incapable of being mistaken? Or lieing? Or exaggerating?
Is that what you are saying / implying?

His descriptions of events, if inaccurate, would have been revealed as false by other contemporaries.
He would have been discredited.

They weren't; he wasn't.

His descriptions of events can be very accurate, while his estimation of attendees can be wrong and/or exaggerated. And how would you know if other contemporaries agreed with him or not? It's 2000 years ago... the vast majority of writings from that time are lost in the pages of history.

Not among his contemporaries, who knew and were more aware of events going on in their day, than historians living now.

Tacitus didn't live in Jeruzalem.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, I should use sources of those who are anti-Christian who have their agendas.

/facepalm

Science is not "anti christian".
Apologists not only are "pro christian", their entire raison d'être is to make christianity look accurate and appealing.

It's apologists who have the agenda to make a story come out a certain specific way.
Science just goes by what the evidence suggests and its only agenda is to get it as accurate as possible. Without any agenda (pro or con) towards any specific religion.

An "Attack the source" fallacy.

Validating your sources is far from a fallacy.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That's not what I said.

Seems like you did though...
Can you clarify then?

 

[metis]

We should remember that the size of Jerusalem at Jesus' time was one square mile, and that at Passover the numbers of people who showed up was very significant. My point is that with a city that small, how could the numbers be large that are living there permanently? People would have to be standing on top of each other to accomplish that.

BTW, I've spend a week in Jerusalem on two different occasions, one week in 1991 and another week in 1999, and let me recommend that if the reader has a chance to go there, please treat yourself and go. One does not just visit Jerusalem-- you experience it.

 

[metis]

Have you seen the first Homo Sapiens?

Probably only my avatar as I prefer to be incognito.

 

[sooda]

We should remember that the size of Jerusalem at Jesus' time was one square mile, and that at Passover the numbers of people who showed up was very significant. My point is that with a city that small, how could the numbers be large that are living there permanently? People would have to be standing on top of each other to accomplish that.

BTW, I've spend a week in Jerusalem on two different occasions, one week in 1991 and another week in 1999, and let me recommend that if the reader has a chance to go there, please treat yourself and go. One does not just visit Jerusalem-- you experience it.

The old city was shockingly small. My Sunday school class had a 10 day trip every April.I went 3 times..

One thing that is certain is the exaggeration of numbers throughout the Bible.

 

[metis]

The old city was shockingly small. My Sunday school class had a 10 day trip every April.I went 3 times..

One thing that is certain is the exaggeration of numbers throughout the Bible.

And undoubtedly much of this was done to impress the reader to imply greatness. This may upset our objective sensitivity, but early Jewish writers typically were seemingly more interested in subjectivity. It's not that they were lying-- just a different cultural approach to convey what they believed to be important points.

 

[sojourner]

Seems like you did though...
Can you clarify then?

Sure. The bible is more than just "social wisdom," and most certainly encompasses more than just 2500 year old sheep herders. There are also documents of state and church (which was hierarchical and highly organized) included. And you left out the part "from a theological perspective." Additionally, the texts come from a wide variety of cultures and sources -- not just a single source.

 

[sooda]

And undoubtedly much of this was done to impress the reader to imply greatness. This may upset our objective sensitivity, but early Jewish writers typically were seemingly more interested in subjectivity. It's not that they were lying-- just a different cultural approach to convey what they believed to be important points.

Their exile in Babylon exposed them to a grand, prosperous country that was rich in history and mythos … They had NONE of that. Everything about Judah was severe and plain.. It was arid and stony with very little arable land.

 

[metis]

Their exile in Babylon exposed them to a grand, prosperous country that was rich in history and mythos … They had NONE of that. Everything about Judah was severe and plain.. It was arid and stony with very little arable land.

... so there would be the emphasis to one-up them, right? Good point, imo.

 

[sooda]

... so there would be the emphasis to one-up them, right? Good point, imo.

Its important to understanding the mindset of the storytellers. After Babylon they created the laws as well as a history and identity for themselves.

 

[metis]

Its important to understanding the mindset of the storytellers. After Babylon they created the laws as well as a history and identity for themselves.

Agreed, but let me just say that this gravitation towards halacha may have largely started while in exile in Babylon since the Temple was destroyed, therefore no sacrifices.

W/O the Temple, Torah was likely more emphasized, and it's Torah that contains the 613 Commandments. Trouble is interpretations tend to vary, thus encouraging the organizing of "schools" and the competition that goes with them. Many see "the Pharisees" as a monolithic entity but nothing could be further from the truth. It was actually more of a "movement", and Jesus and the Twelve were very much a part of that.