• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Archbishop's extraordinary letter to Trump

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
What an extraordinary letter, the Archbishop appears to see revelation prophecy taking place?

Mr. President,

In recent months we have been witnessing the formation of two
opposing sides that I would call Biblical: the children of light and the children
of darkness. The children of light constitute the most conspicuous part of
humanity, while the children of darkness represent an absolute minority. And
yet the former are the object of a sort of discrimination which places them in a
situation of moral inferiority with respect to their adversaries, who often hold
strategic positions in government, in politics, in the economy and in the media.
In an apparently inexplicable way, the good are held hostage by the wicked and
by those who help them either out of self-interest or fearfulness.

read on...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lifesite/Open_Letter_President_Donald_Trump.pdf

Carlo Maria Viganò Titular Archbishop of Ulpiana Former Apostolic Nuncio to the United States of America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Maria_Viganò
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
So we have someone using the language of Christianity in support of "mammon" thus espousing the opposite of the true state of affairs.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Archbishop Vigano, for what it's worth, is one of the greatest critics and opponent's of Pope Francis within the Church (although he's in retirement, actually). He has become rallying point for ultra-traditionalists in their rhetorical campaign against the current Papacy.

There's a long running and bitter antagonism between the two men, which has been rather nasty (on Vigano's part) and resulted in Vigano making a stream of public accusations against Francis and claims of alleged heresy:


The Associated Press characterized Viganò as "a conservative whose hardline anti-gay views are well known," and said the letter "reads in part like a homophobic attack on Francis and his allies."[23]


So, am I surprised by Vigano's gross misinterpretation of the situation and less than subtle rebuke of the stance articuled on the George Floyd protests by Francis? Sadly not from Vigano, it is likely - in my judgment - another attempt on his part to try and undermine Francis, after he made his own views so public on the matter a few days ago. The timing is likely not coincidental.

From two months ago:


Arbp. Vigano: Pope Francis is Teaching 'Blatant Heresy ... a Terrible Blasphemy'


In reference to a document signed by Muslim Imam Ahmad Al-Tayyeb and Pope Francis that says the "diversity of religions" in the world is "willed by God," Archbishop Carlo Vigano, the former Vatican ambassador to the United States, said this idea is a "blatant heresy" and a "terrible blasphemy."

"In his Abu Dhabi declaration, Pope Francis said that God wants all religions," commented Archbishop Vigano. "Not only is this a blatant heresy, it is also a very serious apostasy and a terrible blasphemy."

Archbishop Viganò declares Pope Francis guilty of “formal heresies” | Facebook


The tragic story of this failed pontificate advances with a pressing succession of twists and turns. Not a day passes: from the most exalted throne the Supreme Pontiff proceeds to dismantle the See of Peter, using and abusing its supreme authority, not to confess but to deny; not to confirm but to mislead; not to unite but to divide; not to build but to demolish.

Material heresies, formal heresies, idolatry, superficiality of every kind: the Supreme Pontiff Bergoglio never ceases stubbornly to humiliate the highest authority of the Church


Note how Vigano, with serious disrespect as a Catholic and bishop, refers to His Holiness above as "Pontiff Bergoglio" rather than by his papal name of Francis.

Let us compare the statement of Pope Francis on the situation in the United States and the actions of his associates in the Vatican:

Why is the Vatican so focused on the Floyd saga?

We’re seeing an unusual level of commentary and engagement from Rome about an issue in a specific country, suggesting a conviction that something highly important is at stake.

It began on Wednesday, when Pope Francis used his weekly general audience to call Floyd’s death “tragic” and to say he’s praying for Floyd and “all those others who have lost their lives as a result of the sin of racism.”

“Dear brothers and sisters in the United States, I have witnessed with great concern the disturbing social unrest in your nation in these past days,” Francis said.

“We cannot tolerate or turn a blind eye to racism and exclusion in any form and yet claim to defend the sacredness of every human life,” he said, while also denouncing the violence associated with some of the protests.

On Friday, Cardinal Kevin Farrell of the Vatican’s Dicastery for Family, Laity and Life, one of Francis’s closest allies and advisers, led a prayer service organized by the Community of Sant’Egidio, one of the “new movements” in the Church and an outfit especially close to the pope’s heart.

Billed as a prayer for “peaceful coexistence,” the Sant’Egidio event saw Farrell laud Floyd as a “just man.”

Farrell recalled the US Civil Rights movement of the 1960s and 70s, saying that while one might be inclined to think that “after long years of fighting for civil rights and racial equality,” the injustices of the past would not repeat themselves, but that’s obviously not the case.

Also on Friday, Cardinal Peter Turkson of Ghana, who heads the Vatican’s Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development and another close Pope Francis ally, joined a video conference organized by Georgetown University’s Initiative for Catholic Social Thought and Public Life and featuring Archbishop Wilton Gregory of Washington, D.C.

Notably, the video conference came just after Gregory had blasted US President Donald Trump for a visit to the St. John Paul II Shrine in Washington, saying he found it “baffling and reprehensible” that the site would allow itself to be used for a political photo op.

Why is the Vatican so focused on the Floyd saga?

For one thing. It’s the first major test anywhere in the world of whether the coronavirus pandemic has changed anything – whether the common experience of solidarity and loss has altered our perspectives, or whether we’ll simply fall back on the same patterns of division and exclusion.

Pope Francis repeatedly has insisted that we cannot simply return to the status quo ante, and undoubtedly sees the Floyd situation as a test case.

Related to that, Francis and his team also grasp that the economic hardships caused by the coronavirus shutdown have made the social fabric all the more delicate, and may worry that shocks such as the Floyd uprisings could spin out of control.

For another, issues of race and police violence form a perfect illustration of Francis’s broader argument for a “culture of encounter” as opposed to a “throw-away culture.” Much like immigration, where Francis has been willing to wade into explicitly political waters in order to defend the same principles, the Floyd case apparently is seen as a situation in which discretion is no longer the better part of valor.

Whatever the explanation, the Vatican clearly isn’t sitting this one out. In this case, at least, the usual American instinct is right: The pope is talking about us … and, as it turns out, he’s got a fair bit to say
 
Last edited:

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Tbh, I had come to the same opinion as the Archbishop about the dark forces finally making their play before I saw this letter, and I also knew about the claims of pedophiles inside the Vatican years ago, which Francis is supposedly covering up. If the Archbishop and myself are correct, we shouldn't have to wait long to find out. :)
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Tbh, I had come to the same opinion as the Archbishop about the dark forces finally making their play before I saw this letter, and I also knew about the claims of pedophiles inside the Vatican years ago, which Francis is supposedly covering up. If the Archbishop and myself are correct, we shouldn't have to wait long to find out. :)

Vigano and his group's ultimate motivation was to try and force Pope Francis resignation (Vigano has publicly called upon Francis to resign on numerous occasions) so that a more "conservative" candidate could be installed, in a campaign backed by the likes of Steve Bannon and Cardinal Burke. It has failed but the effort is apparently still onging.

This is widely recognised. See:


EWTN: connected to conservative Catholic money, anti-Francis elements

The Viganò letter was released through several conservative Catholic news outlets, including EWTN's National Catholic Register. In fact, the Register has become a regular vehicle for breaking such pronouncements from church leaders on the right, including a manifesto by Francis critic German Cardinal Gerhard Müller,


He has thus sought to weaponize crises, which have existed long before Francis's pontificate and pertain to the church hierarchy as a collective including preceding pontiffs, as a wedge to undermine Francis's pontificate for what I can only judge to be eminently political and theological reasons - because he doesn't like the Pontiff's pastoral approach and articulation of the church's tradition.

His letter to Trump looks like another carefully timed intervention to me, following Pope Francis's very public words on the protests.

However, I respect that you have an opposing interpretation of the situation and so will leave it there.
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
What an extraordinary letter, the Archbishop appears to see revelation prophecy taking place?

Mr. President,

In recent months we have been witnessing the formation of two
opposing sides that I would call Biblical: the children of light and the children
of darkness. The children of light constitute the most conspicuous part of
humanity, while the children of darkness represent an absolute minority. And
yet the former are the object of a sort of discrimination which places them in a
situation of moral inferiority with respect to their adversaries, who often hold
strategic positions in government, in politics, in the economy and in the media.
In an apparently inexplicable way, the good are held hostage by the wicked and
by those who help them either out of self-interest or fearfulness.

read on...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lifesite/Open_Letter_President_Donald_Trump.pdf

Carlo Maria Viganò Titular Archbishop of Ulpiana Former Apostolic Nuncio to the United States of America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Maria_Viganò
Indeed, quite extraordinary. But what is the source of this? I don't recognise "s3.amazonaws". Is it genuine?

Assuming that it is genuine, it is worth bearing in mind this "archbishop" retired in 2016 and is nearly 80. Presumably, therefore, he holds no official position within the church and is merely an archbishop emeritus, as it were, doing a bit of freelancing.

It looks to me as if he is going nuts, suffering from some kind of paranoia. Quite a lot of people do, when they get very old.

So, if true, a bit bizarre but not of much consequence, I'd have thought.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
So, if true, a bit bizarre but not of much consequence, I'd have thought.

Other websites in the traditionalist Catholic network have been commenting on the alleged letter, so there does appear to be something to it, although I await more official sources.

An example:


Archbishop Viganò’s powerful letter to President Trump: Eternal struggle between good and evil playing out right now


As I noted before, this would not surprise me coming from Vigano - he has a proven track-record of making very outlandish, wild and sensationalised claims in public, like the following from 4 days ago (again directed at Pope Francis):


Viganò: Hierarchy Serving the Devil


Viganò went on to argue, "What is being created is a single world religion without dogmas or morals, according to the wishes of Freemasonry. It is obvious that Bergoglio — along with those who are behind him and support him — aspires to preside over this infernal parody of the Church of Christ."

Also in the letter, he slammed the abandonment of Tradition that came after the Second Vatican Council as a "conciliar cancer" that afflicts the Church even today.


He keeps referring to Pope Francis by his 'pre-pontifical' surname - Bergoglio - which in Catholic circles is, of course, the height of disrespect for the office of the person. Media outlets such as the above website, which cater to a certain traditionalist sub-audience in American Catholicism, endlessly reproduce or comment upon his public statements.

An increasingly prounounced anti-Vatican II'ism also seems to be a leitmotif in his recent announcements / reported statements.

You are absolutely right, though, that Vigano retired from his episcopal duties in 2016 (an archbishop emeritus) and so holds no official position in the church today (although that hasn't stopped him from being a vociferous and vocal critic of the current pontificate in the media, particularly in the anti-Francis US outlets already mentioned such as 'Lifesite News' and 'Church Militant').
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
Other websites in the traditionalist Catholic network have been commenting on the alleged letter, so there does appear to be something to it, although I await more official sources.

An example:


Archbishop Viganò’s powerful letter to President Trump: Eternal struggle between good and evil playing out right now


As I noted before, this would not surprise me coming from Vigano - he has a proven track-record of making very outlandish and sensationalised claims in public, like the following from 4 days ago (again directed at Pope Francis):


Viganò: Hierarchy Serving the Devil

Viganò went on to argue, "What is being created is a single world religion without dogmas or morals, according to the wishes of Freemasonry. It is obvious that Bergoglio — along with those who are behind him and support him — aspires to preside over this infernal parody of the Church of Christ."

Also in the letter, he slammed the abandonment of Tradition that came after the Second Vatican Council as a "conciliar cancer" that afflicts the Church even today.


He keeps referring to Pope Francis by his 'pre-pontifical' surname - Bergoglio - which in Catholic circles is, of course, the height of disrespect for the office of the person. Media outlets like the above website, which cater to a certain traditionalist sub-audience in American Catholicism, are endlessly reproducing his public statements.
OK, then it probably is genuine. From what you say, he seems to have gone a bit bonkers in his old age, most likely as a result of being unable to accept the changes in society, and the church, since the days of his youth.

Another Quixotic old man, then, railing wildly against modernity. He seems to have bought some kind of "deep state" conspiracy theory. The fact he invokes Freemasonry, rather than, say, the Illuminati, Bill Gates, or 5G telecoms masts, shows how out of touch he is. Nobody has blamed Freemasonry for these worldwide conspiracies for about 20 years now.

Now that you mention it, I recall from my time in the US the existence of a barking mad ultraconservative sect within US Catholicism. So he's part of all that, evidently.

Move along, ladies and gentlemen, nothing to see here.....
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Now that you mention it, I recall from my time in the US the existence of a barking mad ultraconservative sect within US Catholicism. So he's part of all that, evidently.

The 'integralist' subgroup of prelates and lay faithful in question (and I unfortunately have great experience of them from online interactions in Catholic forums) are absolutely stark-raving nuts, in my humble and politest estimation. They inhabit an intellectual landscape populated by minions of the devil in the pews, conspiracy theories about Masonic infiltration of the church's hierarchy, liberal heresy etc.

I say that as a person typically of mild manners (by my own admission) but there is little else I can say about this admittedly small but vocal ultratraditionalist element within American Catholicism.

In his retirement, Vigano has become something of an unofficial 'spokesperson' for this theopolitical US lobby-group of anti-Vatican II and anti-Pope Francis Catholics.

See this from last year:


Pope Says It’s ‘an Honor That the Americans Attack Me’


ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE — In an offhand remark on the papal plane en route to Mozambique, Pope Francis on Wednesday acknowledged the sharp opposition he has faced from conservative Catholic detractors in the United States, calling it an “an honor that the Americans attack me.”

His remark came at the start of a six-day trip to Africa, as Francis shook hands in the back of the plane with a French reporter who handed him a copy of his new book, “How America Wanted to Change the Pope.”

Francis warmly told the reporter, Nicholas Senèze, who covers the Vatican for the French Catholic newspaper La Croix, that he had been unable to find the book, which explores American financial, political and media backing of the small but noisy conservative opposition seeking to undermine Francis. Apparently referring to his critics, Francis quipped that their disapproval is “an honor.”

He then handed the book to an aide, and jokingly called it “a bomb.”

Francis’ priorities and inclusive approach to the papacy have infuriated some American prelates, donors and their supporters in the constellation of conservative Catholic media. Those critics often complain that Francis is watering down church orthodoxy, retreating in the culture wars and sowing confusion in the church.

Mr. Senèze said in an interview later that his book, which was released in France on Wednesday, explored the criticism of American conservatives who disagree with Francis’ championing of migrants, his absolute opposition to the death penalty and his willingness to offer the sacraments to divorced and remarried Catholics.

It has been no secret that Francis, the first Latin American pope, has a complicated view of his former neighbors to the north, and that the American conservatives have long been out of his good graces.

He has been a committed critic of the abuses of American capitalism. Not long after Francis’ election, Vatican ambassadors briefed the pontiff about various situations around the world and suggested that he be especially careful when appointing bishops and cardinals in the United States.

“I know that already,” the pope interrupted, a high-ranking Vatican official told the Times in 2017. “That’s where the opposition is coming from.”

That year, two close associates of Pope Francis, in an article published in a Vatican-vetted magazine, accused American Catholic ultraconservatives of making an unholy alliance of “hate” with evangelical Christians to help President Trump.

One of the writers of that article, Antonio Spadaro, a prominent Jesuit who edits the magazine, Civiltà Cattolica, sat with Pope Francis in the front section of the plane on Wednesday.



I honestly think a small-scale schism may be in the works, whereby we could see a tiny schismatic sect within US Catholicism form, which idolizes Donald Trump and rejects Pope Francis as an apostate from the church's tradition. In other words, we could be witnessing the beginnings of a new SSPX from folks who consider themselves "more Catholic than the pope":


On American critics, Pope says he doesn’t want a schism but he’s not afraid of it


ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE - In response to a question about his recent declaration that he’s honored when “Americans are attacking me,” Pope Francis said Tuesday that while he prays to avoid a schism in the Catholic Church, he’s not afraid of it either, because such rifts have occurred throughout history.

Francis also acknowledged that the U.S. is hardly the only place from which he occasionally draws fire, noting that he also has some critics within the Roman Curia, meaning the administrative bureaucracy of the Vatican itself.

Further, Francis also said that criticism isn’t always destructive, especially when it’s delivered in the open rather than behind one’s back.

“On the question of schism … In the Church, there have been many,” Francis said, giving the example of ruptures that followed the First and Second Vatican Councils, including one led by the traditionalist Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the Society of St. Pius X.

“There always is the schismatic option in the Church,” Francis said. “It’s a choice that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I am not afraid of schism … I pray for them not to happen, as the spiritual health of many people is at stake.”

The pope also said that he prays for dialogue, because the “path of schism is not Christian.”

And, you know, as much as I deeply lament any schism (divorce is painful, ecclesiastical divorce no less) however small-scale in nature - part of me wonders if it might actually be for the best, for all of us on both sides of the dispute, if they just leave Communion with the Bishop of Rome and form their own church.

Evidently, they have never acclimatized to the Second Vatican Council's reforms in the 1960s. Pope Francis's faithfulness to the conciliar spirit and the staunch implementation of the council's decrees is causing them existential angst, but their disagreement goes much deeper. They understand that the College of Cardinals now has a majority handpicked by Francis, which will select Francis's successor when he either resigns or dies in office. Their standing in the church has been reduced to that of an eye-rolling 'nuisance' on the part of most of the hierarchy and their hopes for an overturning of the Council's decrees (which cannot happen because ecumenical councils are, in our theology, exercises in the extraordinary magisterium of the Church that are sealed from error in their decisions by the Holy Spirit) have been proven utterly fruitless by the advent of Francis' pontificate.

If it bothers them that much, there's a nuclear option available to them no? If they honestly believe that Pope Francis is a heretic, as they say, then what's stopping them?
 
Last edited:

exchemist

Veteran Member
The 'integralist' subgroup in question (and I unfortunately have great experience of them from online interactions in Catholic forums) are absolutely stark-raving nuts. They inhabit an intellectual landscape populated by minions of the devil in the pews, conspiracy theories about Masonic infiltration of the church's hierarchy, liberal heresy etc.

I say that as a person typically of mild manners (by my own admidssion) but there is little else I can say about this admittedly small but vocal ultratraditionalist element within American Catholicism.

In his retirement, Vigano has become something of an unofficial 'spokesperson' for this theopolitical US lobby-group of anti-Vatican II and anti-Pope Francis Catholics.

See this from last year:


Pope Says It’s ‘an Honor That the Americans Attack Me’


ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE — In an offhand remark on the papal plane en route to Mozambique, Pope Francis on Wednesday acknowledged the sharp opposition he has faced from conservative Catholic detractors in the United States, calling it an “an honor that the Americans attack me.”

His remark came at the start of a six-day trip to Africa, as Francis shook hands in the back of the plane with a French reporter who handed him a copy of his new book, “How America Wanted to Change the Pope.”

Francis warmly told the reporter, Nicholas Senèze, who covers the Vatican for the French Catholic newspaper La Croix, that he had been unable to find the book, which explores American financial, political and media backing of the small but noisy conservative opposition seeking to undermine Francis. Apparently referring to his critics, Francis quipped that their disapproval is “an honor.”

He then handed the book to an aide, and jokingly called it “a bomb.”

Francis’ priorities and inclusive approach to the papacy have infuriated some American prelates, donors and their supporters in the constellation of conservative Catholic media. Those critics often complain that Francis is watering down church orthodoxy, retreating in the culture wars and sowing confusion in the church.

Mr. Senèze said in an interview later that his book, which was released in France on Wednesday, explored the criticism of American conservatives who disagree with Francis’ championing of migrants, his absolute opposition to the death penalty and his willingness to offer the sacraments to divorced and remarried Catholics.

It has been no secret that Francis, the first Latin American pope, has a complicated view of his former neighbors to the north, and that the American conservatives have long been out of his good graces.

He has been a committed critic of the abuses of American capitalism. Not long after Francis’ election, Vatican ambassadors briefed the pontiff about various situations around the world and suggested that he be especially careful when appointing bishops and cardinals in the United States.

“I know that already,” the pope interrupted, a high-ranking Vatican official told the Times in 2017. “That’s where the opposition is coming from.”

That year, two close associates of Pope Francis, in an article published in a Vatican-vetted magazine, accused American Catholic ultraconservatives of making an unholy alliance of “hate” with evangelical Christians to help President Trump.

One of the writers of that article, Antonio Spadaro, a prominent Jesuit who edits the magazine, Civiltà Cattolica, sat with Pope Francis in the front section of the plane on Wednesday.



I honestly think a small-scale schism may be in the works, whereby we could see a tiny schismatic sect of US Catholicism form, which idolizes Donald Trump and rejects Pope Francis as an apostate from the church's tradition. In other words, we could be witnessing the beginnings of a new SSPX from folks who consider themselves "more Catholic than the pope":


On American critics, Pope says he doesn’t want a schism but he’s not afraid of it


ABOARD THE PAPAL PLANE - In response to a question about his recent declaration that he’s honored when “Americans are attacking me,” Pope Francis said Tuesday that while he prays to avoid a schism in the Catholic Church, he’s not afraid of it either, because such rifts have occurred throughout history.

Francis also acknowledged that the U.S. is hardly the only place from which he occasionally draws fire, noting that he also has some critics within the Roman Curia, meaning the administrative bureaucracy of the Vatican itself.

Further, Francis also said that criticism isn’t always destructive, especially when it’s delivered in the open rather than behind one’s back.

“On the question of schism … In the Church, there have been many,” Francis said, giving the example of ruptures that followed the First and Second Vatican Councils, including one led by the traditionalist Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the Society of St. Pius X.

“There always is the schismatic option in the Church,” Francis said. “It’s a choice that the Lord leaves to human freedom. I am not afraid of schism … I pray for them not to happen, as the spiritual health of many people is at stake.”

The pope also said that he prays for dialogue, because the “path of schism is not Christian.”

And, you know, as much as I deeply lament any schism (divorce is painful, ecclesiastical divorce no less) however small-scale in nature - part of me wonders if it might actually be for the best if they just leave Communion with the Bishop of Rome and form their own church.

Evidently, they have never acclimatized to the Second Vatican Council's reforms in the 1960s. Pope Francis's faithfulness to the conciliar spirit and the staunch implementation of the council's decrees is causing them existential angst, but their disagreement goes much deeper. They understand that the College of Cardinals now has a majority handpicked by Francis. Their standing in the church has been reduced to that of an eye-rolling 'nuisance' on the part of most of the hierarchy and their hopes for an overturning of the Council's decrees (which cannot happen because ecumenical councils are, in our theology, exercises in the extraordinary magisterium of the Church that are sealed from error in their decisions by the Holy Spirit) have been proven utterly fruitless by the advent of Francis' pontificate.

If it bothers them that much, there's a nuclear option available to them, no?

There are always extremist fringes to any groups sharing a set of beliefs. This applies to any religion, as well as to politics and much else besides. I suppose one does not want to push them out, unless they become a disproportionately destabilising influence on the rest, which so far does not seem to be the case. I suspect time is on the Church's side, in that the appeal of this crank version of Catholicism must be mainly to the very old.

There is just one respect in which the influence of these people may not be entirely malign: music. I was a great supporter of Benedict XVI's efforts to revive the musical tradition of the church. Sadly, many of the more modern types of Catholic cleric seem to be almost deaf to its musical heritage and to neglect it tragically. It would be a terrible shame if that priceless treasure were to come to be associated with nutters.

I do think that one of the great appeals of the church is its sense of timelessness. I find the feeling of continuity with Christian humanity, represented by reciting the same words and singing the same music as people long gone, 500 or even 1000 years ago - in effect holding hands with past generations - is wonderful and consoling. Perhaps the existence of these nutty fringes is partly a symptom of this role of church worship becoming overlooked in favour of perceived "relevance".
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
There are always extremist fringes to any groups sharing a set of beliefs. This applies to any religion, as well as to politics and much else besides. I suppose one does not want to push them out, unless they become a disproportionately destabilising influence on the rest, which so far does not seem to be the case. I suspect time is on the Church's side, in that the appeal of this crank version of Catholicism must be mainly to the very old.

There is just one respect in which the influence of these people may not be entirely malign: music. I was a great supporter of Benedict XVI's efforts to revive the musical tradition of the church. Sadly, many of the more modern types of Catholic cleric seem to be almost deaf to its musical heritage and to neglect it tragically. It would be a terrible shame if that priceless treasure were to come to be associated with nutters.

I do think that one of the great appeals of the church is its sense of timelessness. I find the feeling of continuity with Christian humanity, represented by reciting the same words and singing the same music as people long gone, 500 or even 1000 years ago - in effect holding hands with past generations - is wonderful and consoling. Perhaps the existence of these nutty fringes is partly a symptom of this role of church worship becoming overlooked in favour of perceived "relevance".

A well written and insightful post, thank you.

I myself am a "traditionalist" in terms of liturgical tastes, in that I favour the solemn beauty of the Extraordinary Form of the Tridentine mass over the Novus Ordo in certain respects.

It can be quite a humbling experience to realise that you are the heir and keeper of something immemorial (or with an air of being 'time immemorial'): a custom that has a deep history of moral meaning, passed down from one generation to the next. There's a real beauty to that and in being able to introduce the next generation to the same traditions that shaped oneself growing up.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a preference for the language, music and pattern of an older style worship.

But the kind of "traditionalism" at play here is quite different. It is an attempt to return the church to an inward retreat from dialogue with the outside world, to resurrect the psychological walls of a siege mentality. As a family, we have no right to calumny one another as heretics for practising the same faith and holding to the same deposit of faith in a different way.

That is less "traditionalism" and more an example of inordinate "traditiolatry". It is precisely due to the fact that the tradition is timeless that it cannot be tied down to one particular time-conditioned, culturally contingent "style".

There was a famous linguistic tussle in late antiquity over the precise definition of the Latin word religio (from which we derive 'religion'). According to the pagan rhetorician and Stoic-influenced moralist Cicero (106 BC – 7 December 43 BC), 'religio' was derivative of 'relegere' ("to re-read") which entailed 'rote learning', meaning that to be 'religious' was to studiously and uncritically retain the ancestral cultic traditions and customs of one's forefathers. Therefore in his dialogue, De natura deorum, one of the main interlocutors Aurelius Cotta, affirms: "For my part a single argument would have sufficed , namely that it has been handed down to us by our ancestors...I think that I should defend those opinions which we have received from our ancestors about the immortal gods, and the cults and rites and religious duties. I myself will indeed defend them always and always have defended them" (Cic. Nat. D. 3.9).

The early church father Lactantius argued that religion was not derived from relegere "to re-read" but on the contrary from the root ligo "to bind".

As Lactantius explained in his Divine Institutes (translated below in the Catholic Church's New Advent collection of the Church Fathers):

CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book II (Lactantius)


It is therefore right, especially in a matter on which the whole plan of life turns, that every one should place confidence in himself, and use his own judgment and individual capacity for the investigation and weighing of the truth, rather than through confidence in others to be deceived by their errors, as though he himself were without understanding.

God has given wisdom to all alike, that they might be able both to investigate things which they have not heard, and to weigh things which they have heard.

Nor, because our ancestors preceded us in time did they also outstrip us in wisdom; for if this is given equally to all, we cannot be anticipated in it by those who precede us. It is incapable of diminution, as the light and brilliancy of the sun; because, as the sun is the light of the eyes, so is wisdom the light of man’s heart.

Wherefore, since wisdom — that is, the inquiry after truth — is natural to all, they deprive themselves of wisdom, who without any judgment approve of the discoveries of their ancestors, and like sheep are led by others...


The Catholic tradition combined relegere with ligo into a new holistic understanding of religion.

On the one hand, the very implication of being part of a "sacred tradition" is that you are the heir to and recipient of some rich inheritance from the past. And of that, we Catholics certainly are.

Ours is the heritage of the apostles - through the apostolic succession, as we so regard it, the 'laying on of hands' from one generation of bishops to another in unbroken lineage - the deposit of faith and the seven sacraments, the ecumenical councils, the intellectual patrimony of the church fathers, the spiritual reservoir of the desert fathers and the great mystics, the analytical treatises of the scholastics and the Jesuits, and much else besides that time would fail me to enumerate.

However, the tradition is never "static" or in a steady-state of fossilisation. With every new generation has come a renewed wealth of insight and understanding into that 'deposit of faith' which has progressed in time through the ages and which we believe to be an inexhaustible source of 'newness' in knowledge. The analogy often used is that of a tree slowly growing from the original acorn into a small sapling and then into a great oak.

All Catholics, each in our own way - whether Latin rite, Eastern rites, Tridentine Mass or Novus Ordo - are heirs to and preservers of the one sacred apostolic tradition.

What many self-identifying traditionalists forget is that Vatican II actually revived traditions from the early church in its reformed liturgy - such as the sign of peace and certain words of institution adopted from St. Hippolytus's Apostolic Tradition orders of the late second century - that represent a far more primitive mode of worship than the Tridentine Rite.

The tradition, though, cannot be "fossilized" into one sacrosanct and immutable socio-cultural manifestation.

In the first century, the early Christians worshipped in synagogues and sacrificed in the Jerusalem Temple alongside other Jews. The first liturgy was Jewish and synagogical in nature.

After the collapse of the Temple in 70 A.D., in the centuries that followed, new liturgical styles sprouted up in the Latin West, Byzantine East, Alexandrian Coptic, Syro-Malabar Indian, Maronite Lebanese, Ruthenian, Russian etc. etc.

None of these liturgical styles has a monopoly on the faith.

An unprejudiced analysis of Pope Francis's pontificate would demonstrate that he has done no injury to the church's sacred tradition but is a faithful student of the Patristics and a profound adherent of the mystical theology of the medieval church, such as that of the Franciscans, as well as the glories of his own Jesuit order.
 
Last edited:

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Further to the above post:

In like manner, the Christian tradition entrusted to the church slowly unfolds in time with growth in insights and realities, never losing sight of the "rich root of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17) but growing into something better and greater than its origins.

This interpretation was encapsulated in the saying of St. Vincent of Lérins, who wrote concerning doctrinal development in the fifth century: “Therefore, let there be growth and abundant progress in understanding, knowledge, and wisdom, in each and all, in individuals and in the whole Church, at all times and in the progress of ages".

"Opera Christi non deficiunt, sed proficiunt": "Christ's works do not go backwards, they do not fail but progress" said St. Bonaventure (1221 – 1274) in his De Tribus Quaestionibus. In its modern articulation, the Catholic Church describes it thus (in the Vatican II document on sacred scripture, 1965):

Dei verbum


“The Tradition that comes from the apostles makes progress in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts. It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth. Thus, as the centuries go by, the Church is always advancing towards the plenitude of divine truth, until eventually the words of God are fulfilled in her.”

As St. Augustine of Hippo once put it, we can understand it as "Ancient Beauty, ever new".
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
What an extraordinary letter, the Archbishop appears to see revelation prophecy taking place?

Mr. President,

In recent months we have been witnessing the formation of two
opposing sides that I would call Biblical: the children of light and the children
of darkness. The children of light constitute the most conspicuous part of
humanity, while the children of darkness represent an absolute minority. And
yet the former are the object of a sort of discrimination which places them in a
situation of moral inferiority with respect to their adversaries, who often hold
strategic positions in government, in politics, in the economy and in the media.
In an apparently inexplicable way, the good are held hostage by the wicked and
by those who help them either out of self-interest or fearfulness.

read on...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lifesite/Open_Letter_President_Donald_Trump.pdf

Carlo Maria Viganò Titular Archbishop of Ulpiana Former Apostolic Nuncio to the United States of America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Maria_Viganò
InB4 Archbishop's not a REAL Christian
 
Top