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Featured Apostle John was not the disciple, I think his gospels show this clearly.

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by oldbadger, Oct 14, 2021 at 3:04 AM.

  1. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I mentioned this point to a member yesterday who had been quoting from John's gospel, and there it was, another thread for your consideration.

    That Apostle John was not Disciple John could be argued because of where he is reported to have lived... on a kind of prison island called Patmos, off the Ephesian coast. There's also the approximate dating of this gospel compared with the approximate age of the youthful disciple in AD/CE 28-30... how old would he have been when this gospel was written and comparisons with the projected average ages of Galilean peasants in early first century Northern Palestine. But not here on this thread! :)

    This thread is dedicated to comparing the accounts as reported in the synoptic gospels with John's account, just that. I'll offer evidence, a single exhibit in a single post, and will offer one post each day. I'll try to answer all questions and challenges as best I can.

    The first exhibit will be offered after this OP.
     
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  2. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Exhibit One.

    One of the most amazing experiences that disciple John could ever have witnessed was when he was with Cephas and his brother James on that mountainside (maybe mount Horeb?) when Jesus became 'transfigured'.
    Jesus Christ took three of his disciples, Peter, James, and John, up on a mountain, where Moses and Elijah appeared and Jesus was transfigured, his face and clothes becoming dazzlingly bright (Mark 9:2–13; Matthew 17:1–13; Luke 9:28–36).

    The word 'transfiguration' means a change of form or appearance. In this passage Jesus' appearance changes so a glimpse is given of his full heavenly glory, “His face shone like the sun and his clothes became as white as the light”. ... and Moses and Elijah stood beside Jesus! And that voice, sounding down from the clouds, saying, 'This is my beloved Son: hear him'.

    Here is one of the accounts that are shown above, the Matthew and Luke accounts are most similar:-

    Mark {9:2} And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. {9:3} And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. {9:4} And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. {9:5} And Peter
    answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. {9:6} For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. {9:7} And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. {9:8} And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

    Question:- If you had been there, seen and heard all of that, would that memory remain with you for all your days? If it was you who were writing and account of all that you had seen, heard and done with Jesus, would you make mention of that incident?

    Well Apostle John didn't! He either didn't know about it, or didn't think it important enough to mention, or........ he never was that disciple John!
     
  3. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    The options you give are not the only possibilities, but I can understand that this thread is about showing John was not the disciple John so everything is slanted that way.
     
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  4. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    It occurs to me that you should inquire into the mitzvos to see if Jesus is fulfilling a mitzvo and which one and how exactly.

    There are things I don't know about Judaism. For example I can read the 613 mitzvos including these about love and brotherhood: https://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm#Love I think I grasp love in the group-hug sense, but why does Jesus have a particular disciple he loves? Is this based upon a mitzvo? It almost has to be, because its Jesus.

    I've never inquired about that before. It feels like an awkward Old Badger kind of question. @oldbadger
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    I think the two problems here are:
    1. After writing 21 chapters of John, you desire that he continue writing to satisfy a position but you and I are not the author nor do we determine his subject matter that he wanted to share. As a matter of fact he said in the last chapter, "25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." Obviously, even if he did mention it, you could find another important subject he didn't
    2. It is believed that John wrote after the books of Matthew, Mark and Luke. Assuming he knew about those books, why would he want to repeat what is already repeated?
     
  6. Lain

    Lain Member

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    Concerning this from Clement of Alexandria: "last of all, John, perceiving that the external facts had been made plain in the Gospel [the other ones], being urged by his friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel."
     
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  7. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Thank you!!
     
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  8. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Most modern scholars recognize that the author of Revelation is a different person than the author of the gospel of John. They refer to the former as John of Patmos, an apocalyptic Jewish Christian. The author of the gospel John has very different writing style and tenor. So these are not the same John's.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Patmos

    As far as the author of gospel John goes, or any of the gospels, it is unlikely they were actual disciples of Jesus himself. Rather they are the works of various communities or schools that were roughly identified with those named disciples. They followed certain traditions, like saying "I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, or I am of Cephas" (1 Cor. 1:12). The actual authors of the gospels are anonymous. Those names of 'according to' were later attributions from a theological perspective.
     
    #8 Windwalker, Oct 14, 2021 at 9:49 AM
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021 at 9:58 AM
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  9. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Yes, there is many thoughts and differing viewpoints. We are talking about John and his Gospel so I don't want to sidetrack the OP.

    Most, if not almost all, of the positions that John wasn't a disciple is modern day theology but not of those of his time which would be more reliable.

    Referencing the Fourth Gospel’s author, early church father Irenaeus (c. 130-202 AD) writes,

    Further, they teach that John, the disciple of the Lord, indicated the first Ogdoad, expressing themselves in these words: John, the disciple of the Lord, wishing to set forth the origin of all things, so as to explain how the Father produced the whole, lays down a certain principle,—that, namely, which was first-begotten by God, which Being he has termed both the only-begotten Son and God, in whom the Father, after a seminal manner, brought forth all things. [1]


    Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 AD), as quoted by the church historian Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 263-339 AD) denotes the following:

    Again, in the same books Clement has set down a tradition which he had received from the elders before him, in regard to the order of the Gospels, to the following effect. He says that the Gospels containing the genealogies were written first, and that the Gospel according to Mark was composed in the following circumstances:—

    Peter having preached the word publicly at Rome, and by the Spirit proclaimed the Gospel, those who were present, who were numerous, entreated Mark, inasmuch as he had attended him from an early period, and remembered what had been said, to write down what had been spoken. On his composing the Gospel, he handed it to those who had made the request to him; which coming to Peter’s knowledge, he neither hindered nor encouraged. But John, the last of all, seeing that what was corporeal was set forth in the Gospels, on the entreaty of his intimate friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel.[2]


    Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35-108 AD) quotes John’s Gospel quite frequently as he writes an epistle to the Antiochians. Ignatius’s quotation of the Fourth Gospel illustrates that the book was viewed in a positive light and authoritative. Ignatius is noted as a disciple of John the apostle along with Polycarp. The Marytrdom of St. Ignatius notes the following:

    Wherefore, with great alacrity and joy, through his desire to suffer, he came down from Antioch to Seleucia, from which place he set sail. And after a great deal of suffering he came to Smyrna, where he disembarked with great joy, and hastened to see the holy Polycarp, [formerly] his fellow-disciple, and [now] bishop of Smyrna. For they had both, in old times, been disciples of St. John the Apostle. Being then brought to him, and having communicated to him some spiritual gifts, and glorying in his bonds, he entreated of him to labour along with him for the fulfilment of his desire; earnestly indeed asking this of the whole Church (for the cities and Churches of Asia had welcomed6 the holy man through their bishops, and presbyters, and deacons, all hastening to meet him, if by any means they might receive from him some spiritual gift), but above all, the holy Polycarp, that, by means of the wild beasts, he soon disappearing from this world, might be manifested before the face of Christ.[3]


    Much more could be given as far as external evidence. However, the presented information should suffice for our purposes.

    https://crossexamined.org/wrote-gospel-john/

    I trust these contemporary viewpoints more than that of modern liberal viewpoints.
     
  10. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    He mentioned John as being on Patmos, so that makes it a different John. Just pointing that out. The book of Revelation doesn't belong to the same John as the gospel is attributed to. If we're discussing authorship, it's important to make that distinction.

    Let's question that. Why? Why would someone who did not directly know the actual authors themselves, but lived in a different region of the world, a hundred years removed after the texts were written, have better insights into authorship? Things passed on by tradition is not the same thing as a critical literary analysis of the texts. The tools of modernity are an order of magnitude more revealing than the tools of premodernity.

    Think of it like the way people reasoned about the moons of Jupiter prior to the invention of the modern telescope. Prior to that we speculated based upon what appeared to the unaided naked eye. A limited amount of information was available, and we did our best. Inventive and well-reasoned logic arguments were used to make the case for what they believed to be true, such as there must be five moons because there are five elements and five orifices of the body, but clearly they made mistakes based upon that limited vision.

    Reliance upon tradition alone, while it has some value as far as traditionalism goes, is not the same thing as actual critical scholarship. Modern scholarship out-contextualizes premodern scholarship. We simply have better tools available to us. Accepting modern scholarship does not mean you deny religious faith. It simply means you rethink how we once imagined things to be in a new light. That's all.

    Branding these things as "liberal" is disingenuous. They are modern, like the telescope or a microscope is modern. Would you claim that data collected by the Hubble telescope is a "liberal bias"? Of course not. These are tools, not ideologies. How you interpret the meaning of these things is a subjective matter. Those can be 'liberal' or 'conservative' in nature. But denying the veracity of the findings, is just disingenuousness, or "bad faith".
     
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  11. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    No slants.
    Let's see what your possibilities are.
     
  12. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hi Bricks.
    I'm referring to the gospels only although others can produce whatever they wish. :)
     
  13. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    No Ken
    I don't think so.
    Imagine that you had witnessed that amazing incident, would you not have mentioned it? Nothing?
    No personal experiences mentioned?

    That's a stretch.
     
  14. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    But he didn't, did he? He wrote about incidents and situations again and again. But not this amazing event.... and others too.
     
  15. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Apart from Mark, who was definitely present at some incidents. No doubts in my mind.

    But there it is, as you say, Apostle John was not the disciple.
     
  16. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Why don't you just review the gospels? Other people opinions can't help you with your own readings.
     
  17. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    We are just talking a out the author of G-John, who could not have been the disciple John because he didn't know about things that disciple John did.
    :)
     
  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    A challenge! Ok. :cool: I propose arguments that it is Judas.

    The disciple that Jesus loved may have been Judas. It was Judas who was greeted by Jesus with a kiss. Judas may have been working the whole time to get closer to Jesus, perhaps to become the treasury keeper. It was Judas whom Jesus personally sent on an errand at the Last Supper. It was Judas that was doomed to betray Jesus, which would possibly have made him even more of a favorite of Jesus.

    The list of disciples in Matthew 10 lists Judas last, because he is the worst both for betraying Jesus and for being a member of the Siccari (Iscariot). Luke 7:47 says that whoever is forgiven much loves much, and whoever is forgiven little loves little. Judas, having been forgiven the most, loves the most.

    [Mar 10:21-22 NIV] 21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22 At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

    In a way the above story is about Judas. Judas is following Jesus but is stealing from the treasury. "Jesus looked at him and loved him."​

    Best of luck with your search for the disciple oldbadger.

    ***edit***

    Also Judas may have been situated near to Jesus at the last supper. He may have been the one who leaned against him and asked "Which of us will betray you?" (John 21:20)

    [Mat 26:23 NIV] 23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me.
    Who was next to Jesus? Who was so near at the last supper? Who was the disciple Jesus loved?


    ********************
    But I really don't know. I'm just tossing it at you.
     
    #18 Brickjectivity, Oct 14, 2021 at 1:43 PM
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021 at 1:51 PM
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  19. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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  20. Lain

    Lain Member

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    I am not sure why leaving out an event makes him not the author of it. All of them leave out events the others mention.
     
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